understanding the warrior idea in the FH system.

[Ark]

i have always thought this to be a problem but have never posted about it. finally decided to get around to it.

what is the role of the "warrior" class in the FH system?

to take damage?
to deal damage?
niether?
both?
to kill the little monsters?
to kill the boss monsters?
support?

I think alot of the reason we fight over the warrior so much is because of opinions on what a warrior is suposed to do. some see it as a tank with a shield to hold monsters at bay. others see it as a 2 handed damage dealer.
I am of the opinion to split warrior into two different classes altogether:
-Dragoon: with a focus on tanking and defense.
-Berserker: with a focus on damage and offense.

right now both are rolled up into 1 warrior path, and fails at both. its not its fault though, if it were good at both it would be broken.
if you try to be offensive and use skills like rage or weapon spec you are unable to use any of your defensive skills or a shield and screw yourself. if you switch and use one of your defensive stances you reduce or negate your damage dealing altogether. there is no happy middle ground.

my overall feelings on a warrior split into dragoon and berserker.

dragoon would focus on heavy armor and a sword and board style of combat, i dont forsee it doing more damage then 1 without help from a discipline. when everyone else on the field is dead, the dragoon will be there to drag them off

berserker would focus on medium armor and duel weapon/2 handed style of combat. it would be able to swing 2 damage well and probobly up to 3 wih a 2 handed weapon, though be just as fast to take damage as it is to deal it. first into the fight, first to die

[GM_Chris]

Build both paths for me so I can better understand what you are asking.

Thanks

[Ark]

Dragoon: Heavy armor

Basic
-Determination
-combat reflexes
-use shield
-Hold ground

Advanced
-Endurance
-Combat Reflexes
-Shield (as dwarf/man-at-arms)
-Defensive matrix

Master
-Improved Combat reflexes
-Fortitude
-Strength of the Defender (as potion)
-Parry

Summery:
Close to the warrior class we have now with obvious exceptions, total soak from class comes to 3 life, 7 combat reflexes, and 12 armor. average damage is 1. resist root removed to limit class mobility.


Berserker: Medium armor

Basic
-regen
-vigor
-resis fear
-duel weild

Advanced
-Combat reflexes
-Resist root
-vigor
-missle avoidence

Master
-Fortitude
-Rage (allowed to use other Berserker skills)
-weapon spec
-Cleave (spend 1 life to swing a "3 lash" 10 second reload)

Summery:
Quite different from the warrior we have now. relies on pure life and a few resists to keep moving and fighting past when others would not, dealing as much damage as it can before they have to run or die. total soak from class is 4 life, 2 Combat reflexes, 8 armor.

other details:
Dragoon maintains its core weakness against vorpal damage gaining more soak from CR then life compared to the berserker, i had wanted to add a "root" effect as an advanced or master skill but ran out of room, could always include it as a swap out. the berserker is a very squishy warrior but thats the point, it has the resists to keep doing damage but sacrfices its already low soak to do so. i was going to replace its advanced combat reflexes with something else (maybe a 5 crush/5 vorpal attack?) but i dont want to kill its soak entirely. it is a combat class after all, perhaps those attacks could be included as a swap out. . .

thats the rough outline.

[Wyrmwrath]

The warriors goal/role/purpose is...combat. To fight the enemy. The methods used are as varied as the number of them that exist, but all will have some common traits.

To try to boil them down into one of two catagories is like asking is your mode of transportation the space shuttle or a tricycle and give no other options.

The warrior PATH as it stands has some holes, but does what it is meant to do well, and that is serve as the core of a complete PC build once skills form the disciplines have been added to round out the "style" of that PC.

Saying it does neather well shows your only looking at the skeleton and not the entire creature. The same can be said for ANY of the other three of the four main archtypes (wizard/mage, rogue/thief/scout, cleric/healer).

[Ark]

off all the paths warrior is the most. . .clunky, dont know a better word to describe it. every other path has very clear progression and direction of what they are intended to do and acomplish. and behind it we have the circle of rock, paper, scissors, between them with sage and healer sitting on the outside.

who proposes the new skills / skill changes for warrior anyway?

as i stated warrior is split in its role/skill choice

deffense
-hold ground (situational)
-determination (solid skill)
-endurance (waste of space)
-deffensive matrix (situational)
-resist root/slick (solid skill)
-parry (the big one)

soak
-combat reflexes
-combat reflexes
-combat reflexes
-vigor
-fortitude. . . . (warriors gotta have soak)

offensive
-rage
-weapon spec. . . .(both skills trade too much for the gain)


5 of the 12 path skills are religated to soak. this is hard to deal with as warriors need soak, but a cool skill could replace it instead. . .i suggest a dropping CR at basic level and making the master version improved CR, total soak drop of 1.

2 skills only work when in negitives. again hard to deal with, one is a solid skill the proposition of being near death before skills work anoy me.

2 are defensive stances that change what you can do in fundamental ways, DM cuts all damage output causing at best a draw and at worst your own death. HG as an effect is good, but the drawbacks like DM lead to your death one way or another.

2 are resists, both the best skills in the warrior tree, parry aside from the MASSIVE CHEESE that is 0 vorpal knockout is a good skill, i say good because these days with recent changes it is not as good as it used to be, will go into more detail later. and resist root/slick, well worth the downgrade to medium armor if you plan to do any tactical movements in a battle or rely on mobility at all.

2 are offensive, rage negates all other warrior skills making it risky at best. weapon spec causes you to loose both a shield or two weapons. . .either of the latter being a better choice then use of the former.


__________________________
sub section for parry (the crutch that warrior is ballanced against)

parry in effect is a resist frontal melee attack skill. though unlike normal "resist" skill reduces the number in a skill to "0" (see 0 vorpal knockout cheese for why this sucks) and costs 1 life point to use. . .but how usefull is this skill really???

-attacked with vorpal? use a weapon or shield to block the attack, and if its only 1 vorpal there is no point in the use of the skill anyway
-attacked with crush? use a level 1 potion to negate all crush period, a 1 level splash into alchemy costs 20 points and nets you more then plenty.
-attacked with high damage melee? remeber that shield/weapon you have? yeah use that to block the hits
-disarm? this is actually a real reason to have parry. . .but its almost never used and you should have backup weapons anway. these days if people want to disarm a warrior they will just use shatter
-shatter?/magic?/taunt?/lash?/charm?/fear? you are SOL my friend
-vorpal knockout?/sleep? anyone that has these skills and wants you dead is going to kill you, im sorry thats just the way it is.


that does it for my lesson on warriors for the night.

[GM-Phil]

ALl I ahve to say to you Ark, is I cannot disagree more. I believe Warrior, next to Healer to be one of the best Paths out there, and very clear and good at what it does.

With the additions of Dixciplines you can make nearly any type of character with the Warrior Path

A pure combat monger

A Diplomat who can take care of himself

A Lone savage in the wilderness

The list goes on ..

[Ark]

other paths, with minimal investment in warrior (say picking up the first three basic warrior skills) can be nearly as compitent a warrior as the entire warrior path on the other hand warrior cannot do the oppisite of that.

this stems from its master level damage bonuses BOTH being inifective to just using a sword/board or two weapons. and parry being obsolete compared to simple tactics and basic level potions

example with Sage as primary path
duel weild (basic swap out, something not even a warrior has)
use shield
tictics (2 CR)
augment (1 life point or 2 CR)
heavy armor (12 armor same as warrior)

basic warrior (60 points)
determination
CR (2)
vigor (1)

mimic or purchase base crit strike (5 count for 4)

total soak difference of. . .4, 2 CR and 2 life points. with ALL the utility that being a sage provides, no parry but can break a weapon in emergency (what other master level skill can be copied so easy)
same if not better damage (warrior cannot weild two weapons before discipline, one being privliged aka 1 life point for lifestyle, the other droping armor to light aka -8 armor) same burst damage (i pick up basic crit strike on all my warriors)

and. . .

usefull outside of combat!!!

i have no doubt that given like disciplines and fighting skill warrior would still probobly beat this character in melee. . .55-60% of the time, maybe less, does that seem right?
EDIT: actually looking over mezmerize a sage could "stun lock" a warrior.

[Kiel Reid]

To kinda give my opinion on what the role of warrior is...

The warrior path grants you the defensive abilities to stay up in combat so you are able to deal more damage throughout said fight. You also have a few abilities that can be used towards increasing your passive damage (Rage and Weapon Focus).

If you are able to stand in combat longer you are able to deal more damage. Now I know LARP combat doesn't work like a video game but we can all agree that there are probably some abstract averages we can use to help draw comparisons.

Lets assume that your average warrior has 12 AP, 7LP and 6 CR.

Let's also guess that on average a warrior does 1 damage every 2 seconds.

And finally they are taking 10 damage every minute one attack for 5 damage and 5 attacks for 1 damage.

Now lets assume the rogue has 4 LP 6 AP and 0 CR and deals like 48 damage every minute. He just never misses and is perfect in everyway. He still takes the same amount of damage.

The rogue drops in a minute. He deals 48 damage.

The warrior drops in 4 minutes allowing them to deal 120 damage in the time frame. This because he is able to parry the 5 and only take 1 lp of damage. Because the warrior was able to stand longer they are able to deal more damage.

Yes this is overly simplified. Have you ever noticed how warriors seem to be able to stand in combat for long periods of time?

[Ark]

that is a grosly underestimated amount of damage that warrior took

-the warrior has to be in combat to deal damage, meaning he is within striking distance of the enemy, if he is doing damage he is taking it, usually on a 1-1 basis if he is alone.

-the rogue is only in combat as long as it takes him to make one swing, usually he is running past while doing this, and not in front of the targets face.

in a usual larp fight with 4ish NPC's and 10ish PC's a rogue will heavilly out DPS a warrior, and take less damage doing so (matt and I ran this type of scenario at SH and kept track of our damage, i beat him quite a bit, and he is a much better warrior then me )

in straight 1v1 a warrior should beat a rogue as that is how the wheel of ballance is. . .ballanced. though i very much apreciate your thoughts on the subject. always nice to hear from others.

[Kiel Reid]

The amount of damage the warrior took is not underestimated. If that were so warriors would be dropping much more quickly and as we know that is not the case. Warriors can block damage just like Rogues can. They can also move around in combat. Assuming 1 point of damage every 2 seconds takes that into account. It can be a 2 second break and then 4 attacks within 2 seconds.

There is no scenario where a rogue does more damage than a warrior over a long period of time and since warriors can stand in combat longer their ability to do while staying alive is also better

[Ark]

There is no scenario where a rogue does more damage than a warrior over a long period of time

quite the bold statement. not true, but bold. i recall a warrior skill that cuts ALL damage, when i frequently insult and mock this skill im told "other people kill it while you keep it busy". The time frame that it takes warriors to do equal damage to a target compared to one swing from a rogue (that can go as high as 17 in 1 swing) is dramatic all the while the warrior is getting hit while the rogue can run to a safe place to charge again.

using people droping in combat is not a good estimation of if a class is good or not, its a result of player skill. a good player regardless of path will relise they are getting close to death, fall back or run away, heal up, drink potions, whatever, and return to the fight.

[Wyrmwrath]

you keep assuming the warrior is gitting hit and that the rogue is making contact, and yet I havce still to see you come to an event and take me up on a face to face.....and I am old and terribly out of shape. you are pretty much the opposite. I will even wager money you wont win.... and its because your contentions arent based on real larp combat, they are all numbers and suppositions that dont hold up in practice.

[GM-Mike]

I agree with Brian that in a one-on-one fight with equal awareness, the warrior should win. I also agree with Josh that in a mass combat situation, the rogue is potentially deadliest. A warrior played the way Brian plays one takes little damage during combat but deals little damage as well. He does keep people busy while others kill things though. A rogue played the way Josh plays one takes little damage as well and also deals large bursts of damage.

I'm not sure that gets us anywhere but there you go.

[Ark]

because your contentions arent based on real larp combat, they are all numbers and suppositions that dont hold up in practice.

actually quite the oposite. my points are all based on in combat experience. the way warrior and rogue are ballanced now is based on " numbers and suppositions that dont hold up in practice" FH/WH is not the only larp i attend that uses this system

thanks for the input mike i would like to point out that there are never 1v1 fights in FH do to real life constraints.

[GM-Mike]

agreed