back by popular demand. the political system.

[GM-Mike]

Actually I think Phil thinks it's fun...

[GM_Chris]

Is feeding yourself fun? Actually I think having to come up with resources or starve is probably the least fun aspect of the game.

I think intangibles that come from that mechanic are very very fun.

[Ark]

Is feeding yourself fun?

first glance and i thought you meant in real life, my first thought was i love food

Actually I think having to come up with resources or starve is probably the least fun aspect of the game.

I think intangibles that come from that mechanic are very very fun.

i group the fight for survival with the political system, as it is the primary means for gathering resources or starving. . .how are they seperate?

[Wyrmwrath]

and the original question was "is it FUN?" and nobody has said it is. . .

actually by posting support several have said as much, but you are the only one that has said it isnt...

[GM_Chris]

The post I made above was written in haste and I will expand upon it now, unfortunately this is one of those posts that would come off better in person.

Before I begin let me talk a little about multi dimensional plots, but it is late so I will do so by giving a couple examples.

1 dimensional plots are the type of plots you tend to find in video games. They have a beginning and an end and there are few choices the player can make to change the outcome.

2 dimensional plots are those that not only give more choice to the player on how it will turn out. You might even be faced with hurting one group to help another.

3 dimensional plots are those where the players action creates a ripple that extend outside the bubble the plot itself is happening. This is something a video game cannot do. It is why people enjoy table top and live action RP because a person can create a much more realistic ripple. I hope that makes sense.

So why make people feed themselves? Well to be truthful I would say some years the mechanic made no sense at all. In a system where a person is always guaranteed to have the resources to survive then there is no reason to have the mechanic. Honestly in 12 years of FH we should of had events where more people starved.

To reference an earlier post, every plot you go on should in some way have an impact on the environment of the game if the GM's are doing their job properly. Populations are going to go up and down, resources will be gained or lost, people will be happy or angry or what ever based on what you guys do. You make decisions that basically effect the supply of food in the game and this creates multi dimensional plots.

For example, think about the drama of making a decision to help a group of people if it meant that half the players of Haven is going to have to starve for an event?

Long post I assume most will skim it, but this is the same type of argument I give for PvP, which some people hate as well. You cannot have love with out hate. You cannot have brotherhood without the possibility of betrayal. You cannot have certain plots without the possibility of hardship. (starvation)--its boring when the only consequence is death....

[Ark]

no i read the whole thing Chris. and to me it is very clear that you truly see the system as much more role playing then the giant wall of numbers that i look at
once again back to the computer refrense i used in the first post, you see the screen and the awsome game, i see the guts and all the numbers. . .i do however wish i could see it from your point of view

I understand how its used as a plot device, but it just requires so much behind the scenes work to do.

[GM_Chris]

Phil, Jared, and I are working on making sure the players see the RP and not a giant wall of numbers.

The only thing you have to understand is that the more players on your side the better, and you need other players if you want to control a lot of land. You can choose to produce what ever resource you want on a piece of land. What you produce is based on what the land is good at making. Finally, if you produce more of the same resource you get a production boost.

Go play a game of MULE and everything will make sense.

[GM_Chris]

Forget what I just said above. I work better through example so I figure we, and anyone else who would like to join, could play game here in this post. I would pose a scenario, and you tell me, from an RP perspective what you would like to do. I in turn will give responses that are also RP based with an aside on the mechanics. You tell me where it becomes confusing. This would be a big help as I do not want people to not play an aspect of the game because it seems confusing. I appreciate the help Ark, because you have a lot of experience (you ran a chapter) AND you are a good RP'er.

Here we go...anyone is welcome just make a post that you would like to join.

Ark---you are the son of a Shepard who works a small amount of land in some foothills. Your father is sick and has turned responsibility over to you. There is a nearby village where you trade the food, cloth, and leather you produce. You are highly respected by the town. There has been rumor of drought far to the east by travelers who have come through your village. You are just now starting to see people come to your village looking for food and a place to stay. A council has been created to talk about the presence of these people and you were invited to attend. You also have a desire to expend your small "farm"

Surrounding area..To the east are some mountains. There is some unused land north and south of you that would make good pasture that is really not being used, but some local families may have ancestral claim. West is the village and the great forest.

What would you like to do?

[Wyrmwrath]

Kill stuff and take thier gold....

[Ark]

i would probobly ask for some land to either the north or south in return for growing food on ALL of the land, including my own.

as for the new people i would let them stay on the newly aquired land of mine if they would work it, in turn they would be allowed to live there and take a cut of what they farm.

[GM_Chris]

All right so you end up doing some RP and you convince the people who own the land north and south of you to hand it over in return for something.

Mechanics
Since your land, and the land north and south of you, are all connected you get a bonus to production assuming you make the same thing on all three pieces.

You are currently producing sheep which yields some food, some leather and some cloth. You could change everything over and grow crops or continue to make sheep. We tell you how much you make based on what you decide to make so you would have to do a little math.

Also, land needs so many people on it in order to produce. Again we tell you how many, and you do have refugees that could work the land so that is good.

Any confusion yet? That is basically the entire system in a nutshell. You sound like a master!

[Ark]

no confusion at all and it does seem very simple.

i just wish it was not so hard on the GM side who run the numbers

[GM-Phil]

Actually with the work that has been doen recently, the numbers on our side are pretty darn easy to take care of. As the system gets utilized more it should be easy to adapt.

We just need to get people comfortable with what they can do with the economice system - which is pretty much anything within reason.

[Kiel Reid]

I have been fairly involved in the political system for a while now. At both Winter Haven and Final Haven. Overall I feel a though my experience has been OK.

Final Haven has always been very flexible with requests. The goal is always been to provide a fun and fair experience. I have gotten to use military as Francesco in ways that were not listed in the book...But it was in a way that simply facilitated roleplay. A wonderful use of the system.

Building the army was fun as well. Recruiting NPC's that were not originally intended to used as military was great. Troop inspections, checking their morale and providing them with training made it feel more real.

Unfortunately there have been some other areas where I have observed some opportunities for change ot improvement. There is a serious lack of manpower. It has not improved over the course of 3 years.

For the political system to work in the way that you have envisioned it you need more manpower or a rework of the system that makes it so only one person is required to run the system.

Winter Haven has found a way to do this. Their strength is organization and a very linear way of handeling the economic system. There is a degree of roleplay required to get things established and going. There are also plenty of hooks sent in to purchase military.

There is a degree of flexibility there. Not as much as what Final Haven offers however but that is what is required to make it work.

The issue that Winter Haven has been experiencing is a difficulty explaining how the political system works to the players who are new to it. Players are confused and have a certain expectation as to what they should recieve. When they are told "No you don't understand, it actually works like this..." they get frustrated.

The economic system lacks clarity and I know why. The fear is that with too tight of a rule set that it just becomes a numbers game and the roleplay element is left to the wayside. All of a sudden you have a bunch of number crunchers trying to min-max their plots and the vision of the system is destroyed.

After all these years of watching both chapters try and run this system the more I recognize how impracticle it is. I just feel like the fun-effort ratio is way off for this aspect of the game.

[Marcus]

I know that Dani and I are tempted to get more into the political system as both our characters would have contact with what it represents and provides in-game.

The only problem I have had with it is that it has always seemed to me to be very in flux. As a result of that impression it has been very unappetizing to me to spend a great deal of effort learning something that could very well change drastically by the time the next event would happen, putting me "behind the game" and hindering what we have worked for.

Or worse yet, getting gimped by another player's actions because of one GM's interpretation or leeway on something over another's.


Now I'll admit this feeling could be incorrect versus reality, but I personally haven't heard much to the contrary. It has always seemed to me that 40% of how to make the system work is spread across several people's minds, rather than concrete on paper.

I love the RP element that comes at the forefront of the political system, but I have always been worried about the disconnect that might happen between that and the actual resulting numbers.