back by popular demand. the political system.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:25 am

do you like it?
do you understand it?
but are you okay with a fight for survival?
does it make your game experience better?
do you even care and just want your one gold at the end of the event?
could the idea it represents be better implimented?

answers are
no
no
maybe
heck no
dont care gimmi money
obviously
. . .results may differ

for the what im sure is the majority of the populatin the political system is the guts of your computer, a confusing maze of cables, wires and plastic that hides under that awsome screen you play your game on. then one day you log on and find your game starving with no upkeep and you peer at your computers guts with a slight grimise. you know something has gone wrong under there, and you know that with the right skills you could fix it. but alas you really dont care to learn so you call a friend to come over and feed your computer some gold. . .until next time.

if i have not made it clear i hate the system, i feel the time spent on it behind the scenes could be better devoted to writing plots and balancing the game. and over the years my complaining has produced results. you can now survive by simply creating your character to do so. thank you.

but even though i have escaped the greedy gold seeking monster that constantly waits in the wings to devour the PC base only to be staved off by a constant stream of sacrificed money i am curious about those still under its clutches.

do YOU think its FUN?

not do you understand it, not do you use it because you know how and can get a mechanical edge (via military, money, etc) out of it. i dont care and people do.

do YOU think its FUN?

if you had friends over would you sit around and talk about all the fun times you had with the political system? (dont answer phil

)

GM-Phil · Post by **GM-Phil** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:07 am

But why can't I answer - just because we are diametrically opposed - I would think that someone who does enjoy the economic system should be able to answer to?

I will merely say that it is one of the two things that got me interested in the FH system and what made me keep playing it after looking at a few other different LARP's.

Post by **GM-Mike** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:55 am

Not every aspect of the game can appeal to every person out there. There are things in the game that appeal to a very small subset of players but are in the FH system because we KNOW from experience that there are people who get really excited about them.

I'll take another example that most people wouldn't dream of playing--the craftsman. It's like my nightmare, sitting around and...crafting stuff. Several years ago, I wanted to drastically reduce crafting times because I couldn't imagine ANYONE would actually want to do that. Most of the people I talked to were really for the idea. Guess who wasn't? That's right, the craftmen that I talked to. This may be different today, but then I was reminded back in the CARPS days when there were players who would get upset when plots interferred with their ability to make stuff, be it weapons or potions or what have you.

My point is that no one is going to like every aspect of every game. That doesn't mean that those things do not have tremendous value to some people. As you mention, we corrected it so that it wasn't forced upon everyone; you can choose to interact with it or not and how much. It is what you make of it, and some make quite a bit.

Post by **GM_Chris** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:32 am

To sum up the political system for people who do not understand:

It is a set of rules the GM can use to facilitate the role-playing you are doing, and to create role playing opportunities for the player base.

If you do not understand..just interact with the world in a real way and remember that you NEED other players...we will handle the rest.

Wyrmwrath · Post by **Wyrmwrath** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:05 pm

Ark,

I too detest it, BUT.... I think such a system is critical to the real world feel in a LARP.

Shifted Lands doesnt have one and I feel it has hurt the game, and I think thats about the best system around. I fought for years there to get one put in place.

My issue with it is that it was written by a political science nerd and a number chruncher (at least I think its Taki and Phils fault...), not because I feel they did a BAD job. In fact, I dont know enough about how they mimic the real world politics to know how well they did or didnt do. This is because my knowledge of real world and FH political rules and practices might as well be a Chinese riddle, put into code and transcribed into Grman since it would be equally easy for me to digest mentally.

In short, what happened was a computer geek wrote a how to manual on programming, thinking he was simplifying it for those of us not in the "know". Its just not something the uninitiated or naturally inclined has tha paradigm to fully grasp to make it fun for them.

On the flip side, players like Taki, and Phil, and the Marquis de Sade...love it. In fact, I feel that makes it feel ALOT like real politics, since no one with a shred of sanity goes near it and leaves the asylum running to the lunatics that get it. That also means leaving the keys to th kingdon in thier hangs, which I am sure greatly pleases certain player types to no end...*serches for sarcasm italics button*

If you think this one is bad, should have tried the guild system...that one was pure evil...EVIL I say!

notsabbat · Post by **notsabbat** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:21 pm

^ agreed. I dont use the system nor do I have a desire to anytime in the near future, but I love that it is there. Adds to the completeness of the ruleset that is finalhaven. There is a reason I drive 4 hours and try to drag my friends along to the game. I love the system.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:56 pm

actually phil i only meant you could not answer that last question

so we agree that only a small group likes the political system then? could it be orginized to reflect that?

instead of making a system that is required by everyone to use or partake in or they starve, make a system that is almost purely all bonuses, but you only have to deal with if you want too?

****very rough idea ahead, meant as an example, can be worked on*****

if you were to remove starving from the game, all of a sudden those that dont care about the system dont have to. but those that do care still have all features available to them.

then perhaps more might get involved? you get a few resources or coin from your character at check in, instead of hanging onto this to turn in at check in, or giving it to your group leader. you decide "I wonder what i can do with this?" and proceed to a GM or another player to figure out what you can do.

personally i would lve to invest my money into the world, give it to villages or help build buildings for the NPC's, make roads and fishing boats, etc. but thats just me, as it stands i need that money for upkeep so no its all mine.

Post by **GM_Chris** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:45 pm

The starvation thing is only to create a real cost.

The root political system was actually me so if you don't like it please don't blame Taki and Phil as they proposed something different. Phil and Jared have been working very hard to detail my scratch work, but my current living situation has made it very difficult all of which is my fault. Phil and Jared have been doing an absolutely outstanding job despite the difficulty.

Again the political system is designed to create plot devices and realism to the system. For example, and I hope this doesn't ruin anything, the mining village recently had an output issue, but through plot it was determined that dwarf ownership could correct./help the problem. This created in-game interaction between the dwarf players and Taki's character. The "political system" only provided numbers to both parties to help quantify the situation.

Another situation happens when refugees enter Haven. You are on a plot, and find some people that are hurting, and you invite them to Haven. Well that is great, but what happens in-between events is the people in charge of making food finds a greater demand on the food supply. This in turn creates political "plot' like how do we find more food? You may find no joy in trying to find food to feed villagers, but perhaps you enjoyed the plot of helping the villagers get to Haven, or maybe you will enjoy the plot to kill the dragon (metaphorically speaking) to find food.

If you would like to understand the root concept of the mechanics behind the political system simply go to http://www.atarimule.com/

play a couple game and you will get it

Wyrmwrath · Post by **Wyrmwrath** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:25 pm

so we agree that only a small group likes the political system then? could it be orginized to reflect that?

i never said only a small group. In fact id say about a third to half dive into it. everybody else just does what they have to since its part of the game world.

personally i would lve to invest my money into the world, give it to villages or help build buildings for the NPC's, make roads and fishing boats, etc. but thats just me, as it stands i need that money for upkeep so no its all mine.

Then you must LOVE the economic/political system since just like in the real world, you cant give what you havent earned. This must be a HUGE role playing motivation to find an in game way to ear more ...RIGHT?!?!:?!?

Also dont confuse a political system and an economic system. The two blend and cross paths but arent always the same.

Post by **GM_Chris** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:31 pm

Good point we really have more of an economic system. We have disciplines with political names that give economic benefits.

Vampire (minds eye theater) on the other hand had a political system. CARPS also had a political system.

GM-Phil · Post by **GM-Phil** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:18 pm

Jared and I.. with some help from Taki actually tried to steer this system away from a "Political" system and more to an "Economic" system.

This way Politics could be role-played without having to bring mechanics into it. While those that are interested can involve themselves in the Economics of the game through RP and mechanics.

At this point in either game, if a character does not want to involve himself in the economic system and just wants to adventure and make friends, that character will easily be able to survive. (and that is due to Role-playing)

Now if a character wants to be able to get the money or resources required to get him or herself some neat fancy Exotic Items, or upkeep their new Magic item.. then they may have to invest themselves into the economic sysytem, or make friends with someone who has.. which encourages people to RP with ther players.. golly gosh.. what a strange concept.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:09 pm

Aidan_Mcpryde wrote:At this point in either game, if a character does not want to involve himself in the economic system and just wants to adventure and make friends, that character will easily be able to survive. (and that is due to Role-playing)

actually its due to character design, enough classes grant resources that if you have enough of the skills that do, and perhaps the sage skill utilize resource, one can easilly survive.
however, i cannot go out into the woods between events and spend my time gathering food and suplies and just RP my way to survival. and before you say yes you can HA!! i have tried it!!

Aidan_Mcpryde wrote:Now if a character wants to be able to get the money or resources required to get him or herself some neat fancy Exotic Items, or upkeep their new Magic item.. then they may have to invest themselves into the economic sysytem, or make friends with someone who has.. which encourages people to RP with ther players.. golly gosh.. what a strange concept.

actually you have that reversed. the people with the most magic items are usually the ones dealing with the political system in the first place.

and to be fair, that RP to get money consists of walking around beofore game off and making sure everyone has a gold piece for upkeep.

for the most part, your individual groups of people have a leader type. the one that knows the system both mechanical and political. they usually take the resources there group gathers and pool it, as well as magic items, potions, etc. in return for having everything handed to them they have to make sure everyone gets upkept. as well as choose what happens with items (hoarde them, give them to who can best use them, etc.)
i know this happens because i have met the people in the groups before, and I myself am one of these people. i know of at least five people i would classify as "group leaders"
and its not really done for RP reasons, its done because the other memebers of the group dont want to deal with it, they want to go out and adventure, fight in caves, RP, etc.

cole45 · Post by **cole45** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:39 pm

You can survive with out the economic system. You can get enough in treasure to make do. That makes it extra. If you dont like it find some one who does and hang with them or ignore it. Your choice. Larp is a buffet.

Post by **GM_Chris** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:37 pm

Or you can just not turn anything in an be "starving" which is not a huge huge penalty. In fact if you are an alchemist and use potions to augment yourself you definitely do not need to turn in resources...

Anyways, as I tried to convey was that everyone is involved in the economic/political system one way or another whether they know it or not, even a person who chooses to starve themselves.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:51 pm

GM_Chris wrote:Or you can just not turn anything in an be "starving" which is not a huge huge penalty. In fact if you are an alchemist and use potions to augment yourself you definitely do not need to turn in resources...

Anyways, as I tried to convey was that everyone is involved in the economic/political system one way or another whether they know it or not, even a person who chooses to starve themselves.

no its not huge huge, but i think its one huge

potions might be a good idea if any of them lasted a reasonable amount of time (see virus idea)
and the original question was "is it FUN?" and nobody has said it is. . .