Druid Discussion and Balance of Value...

[Todd]

Emulates. Thats funny. Anyway it is similar to some skills, but not identical, and NO skill in game allows for transformation. That in and of itself makes this skill unique. It cant be duplicated by a collection of other skills.

and the skill is so largely undefined. Ie...
If I'm a bloodhound, what can I do? Well, that depends on the npc you ask. So does this mean that anytime Aaron shifts it requires three npcs for him to do anything? Doesn't sound too useful to me. A skill this undefined will bog down the game.

But the skills are defined. Defined by the animal you choose. Almost every animal imaginable has been stat'd by Trevor, or Wayne. There crazy like that. It would take up far too much space to list them all in the book, and I'm sure someone would pick something odd just cause it wasnt in the list, "What about a Wallaby, can I be a Wallaby?" I dont have the list in front of me (and besides the intent was for the PC to choose an animal before finding out the mechanics) but of the few I can think of off the top of my head, are Wolf = evade (resist damage), Scorpian = poison (charged attack), Gorrilla = Slam (charged attack similar to backstab) the list goes on,

I'm going to address two of your statements together here. I dont think anyone will protest once we decide which option is best, its getting to that point thats proving slow. I do think some good things are still happening in this discussion, viewpoints, and even some suggestions. I dont think this horse is quite dead yet. Hmm. Horse.. wonder what they get? Anyway..

By flee messing with the Scout I mean that they would have the scout ability, plus extra abilities (granted there are downsides as well) I just dont like the idea of saying "Heres one skill that allows you to fight like a Monk, deal extra damage like a Warrior, and Flee like a Scout."
'Wait, what? Is that just one ability?'

Plus, if you notice, I chose all 4th level abilities so there is no hassle with balancing

I'm not exactly sure what your refering to. (sorry It early and I'm still tired) Do you mean in this post, or a prior post?

Last question (I think) do you mean Rage instead of the special ability, or in addition to..

Oh one more,

You balance for the power gamers not the role players

we're kind of doing that now, arent we? By limiting the "power" of the skill, but expanding on the 'potential' of the skill. Or did I miss your point?

~fin?~

[Todd]

For the record, incase anyone is confused on this issue.
You choose 1 and only 1 totem at first level, when you reach emulate (which is currently at lvl 4) you gain the ability to shift into that form, and only that form. Using only the ability granted by that form.
Meaning, you are not shifting to multiple forms, you are not selecting powers randomly from a list. Once established (at 1st, and 4th lvls respectivly) your abilities will never change. (unless you were to unlearn, and then relearn the entire set.)
Just wanted to make sure everyone was on the same page.

~fin~

[Tonia Glowski]

The horse is wounded, but not dead yet...

Granted, I've moved the least, but I think there are some key points that have been raised and a few things I think are reasonable after this debate, so maybe it wasn't worthless.

From Brad:
I also feel that you should be able to use all of your DRUID (only Druid) abilities (excluding stuff like extra hitpoints and such, static stuff should stay) while in animal form. ie: You can still survive in the wilderness, you can still move freely, you can still call upon the wilds to root someone.

I wholeheartedly agree. This, to me, is the one exception and simple enough so as not to make a lengthy description.

From Aaron:
By the way, I support this skill, I just want it defined...
Has anyone tried to fight with 2 daggers in battle? You do not survie very long unless you are Brad Liedel. I'll be cool with this if the claws where up to 26". Gives a person a chance to block some in coming hits. Note: a short sword is 36"

After a great deal of thought here, I'm going to agree with Aaron. I've always said I want to do things I can't do in real life when LARPing. My motto is don't punish me because I'm a fat, old chick. While claws in real life might be much smaller than is represented with a 26" phys rep, the animal is going to be far more adept at using their claws than we would with a much smaller phys rep. I think Aaron's request is reasonable and above all safer.

See, Eric, this wasn't dead afterall. Not that you all needed my approval, but there is definitely a consensus beginning to grow.

So... where are we?

One animal form (complete and total transformation so as to be unrecognizable, but not smaller than you really are)
Two claws (up to 26") or One bite (depending on the animal)
One extra skill, determined by plot
No use of equipment or items
Loss of all other skills

Only thing left is whether the totem can use other Druid skills. What say you, Plot?

[Todd]

Druid abilities include, lvl 1 ,Wilderness Surv. this one is cake, you get your extra tags at check in, so that leaves travel time reduction. Makes sense unless you choose a sloth, or a snail or something. lvl 2, No Movement Restrictions, I'm down with that. lvl 3, Root. This one I'm a little hesitant about. I'm not overly comfortable with the combo of Root and Destroy (yes I understand that its possible with a combinations of other skills and paths, but like I said thats a combination of skills, not just one discipline.).
The main reason for the size reqirements is to keep everything standardized. Fists are max length 12" Daggers are max length 18" Short swords are max length 36". Its just easier to keep everything in line with these established lengths. Claws = Dagger equivalent, ergo Claws max length is 18". Yes an animal would be more addept at using claws, but thats already represented by the fact that you can use two of them. Mechanically because of the low damage system, a huminoid cant punch and do damage. While anyone can use a weapon, it takes training to use two weapons. That being said, an animal fighting with claws can already do something that no one but a swashbuckler can do. The monk can do something that noone else can but gets shorter claws/fists. He has the ability to do more things, via other skills.
Whats the thought on the Fight or Flight option? And I'm still waiting for Feskos take on this whole thing too. In addition I know Brian has some thoughts. And we havent heard from Wayne lately either. Wayne?

~

[dier_cire]

Todd,
My suggestions of flee, rage and such were the only skill you get (ie instead as you put). And yeah, the abilities I mentioned were in a previously (unread ) post.

In this scenario your shifted form would be still able to use thier regular abilites (though PCs may choose to not to use certain skills for role playing purposes). Honestly, the shifted form could be completely role playing based at that point, allowing the pc to choose if they want to shift or not to use skills. Shifting would have no mechanically advantage or disadvantage.

Also, on the animals. Yes, they are all stated out which is good, but only half the battle and they aren't balanced for druids really (resist effect).

The hardest thing is "the potential" of the skill. Look at alchemy and arcane as two skills left for potential (hmm, I notice I have both, wonder why?...). They've barely got off the ground, since it takes alot of npc time to make them work (which no one wants to do, although I was pleased to see some movement this month). Not to mention each new thing has to be balance checked, which is a nightmare (I can already duplicate many skills via them).

Another point which Tonia agreed with is that a druid should be able to use all druid abilities while shifted. Why not make shifting 1st level? Druid abilities are all used while in shifted form. Granted shifting would become like a 5 count or something to keep the whole thing effective. As well, limit the whole discipline to light armor, and allow people to retain current hp and armor (armor is still repaired as normal). Eliminates the need to at all re-calculate. Granted there's still the whole issue of balancing the last ability and what it is.

A note on root. Basically root is simply fear where you stand still instead of run away. Both are third level, one benefits those that are runners, the other those that are good fighters. Root is resistable via resist magic or no movement restriction, fear is resistable via resist fear. One costs a life, the other a charge time. Mechanically, this skill is pretty balanced, I'd say.

[Tonia Glowski]

What's the point of reducing Emulate Totem to Level 1 Druid ability?

Have you totally missed the point on how valuable this skill is? Why would we make this skill available to just about anyone instead of those that follow the path all the way through???

As for Fight or Flight, you are essentially adding one more skill, because now they have the option of using this or that. I say we're leaning too far into the overpowered category.

p.s. Todd, I'll call Brian and tell him to post.

[Kale]

Again, I think a druid should be able to use all of their druid abilities and static abilities while in animal form. I think the levels should be:

Level 1: Wilderness Survival

Level 2: No Movement Restrictions

Level 3: Emulate Totem

Level 4: Magic Root

[dier_cire]

Magic Root would require a change as it is very balanced for a 3rd level skill.

The point of reducing shifting (not emulate totem) to level 1, was to make it purely a roleplaying effect with no mechanical value besides allowing for use of all other druid skills (and limiting no other skill use, let the player choose that). Druid would then be ligth armor restriction. For note, I never once mentioned moving emulate totem.

Ie(for the visually based):

Druid (light armor restriction)
level 1: Wilderness Survival
Druid may shift into a hybrid of their chosen animal and human (animal chosen before taking the discipline), and using their heightened animal senses, they may travel faster than others through woods and field

Level 2: No movement restrictions
While shifted the druid is able better sense how the earth responds to their presense thus allowing them to avoid vines and such from impeding their movement.

Level 3: Root
While shifted the druid may now call upon the earth to ensare others for a limited time

Level 4: Emulate Totem
While shifted the druid now gains a special abililty of their chosen animal.
(ie - Flee for scaredy animals, Crush for large, Rage or claws for medium hunters (wolf, cat, etc), ToD for poisonous, etc (kept within already balanced skills))

Course you don't get to be an actual animal but again, that won't work with any animal that is smaller than human sized anyway. Standing around OOG because you are hiding in a hollow log/under a floorboard is just dumb.

[Todd]

Now were movin. Ok starting from the end of my last post.
Reid. I read all the posts (that doesnt mean my brain actually maintained the information though )
I must be really thick headed, because I keep missing important details. If you allow the PC to shift or not shift, with no mechanics, why would you do it, if you cant use skills? or are you saying thats why it should be lower level skill? or.. they should use skills, just as a dog instead? I'm so confused.
The animal are fairly balancing by moderating time/cost. I dont see this being too time consuming because I dont see us having more than 3 or 4 4th lvl Druids max in game at one time.
As for Alchemy and Arcane, yes they can be a logistics nightmare, but thats the nature of the beast. (no pun intended) But your talking about skills which could have 100's of aplications by the time you total up Spells, & Potions. As for why its so small, that was actually intentional. Do to the Breaking/Joining the world is thrown into chaos. Almost all knowledge is lost. 8 starting Spells, 6 starting Potions, & most people cant even Read. As said, this was intentional.
Does druid have an armor restriction? I cant remember. If it doesnt I'd rather not tack one on just so you had the extra points while shifted. And as I said there are no recalculations, just treat all attacks as vorpal.
I have to disagree on the Fear=Root, if feared you have the oportunity to try and run away. I would say I'm a fair fighter (and a poor runner) but I still fear Root more. (ugh, another bad pun)
Tonia. I have to agree about not reducing the level of the skill, it increases the odds of getting more of them. Its definately meant to be the pinnacle of Druidic potential.
As for the Fight or Flight, again I mean you choose this at the begining, and it NEVER changes. This was brought up by Fesko, and I have to admit I like it. It makes more sense when you consider we have 2 1/2 pacifists in game now. Using the Wolf model you could get either 2 claws, or Flee. This is a permanent choice, and you cannot switch back and forth.
Brian has his stuff written up (or so he tells me) but he said alot of what he has in mind is 'plot' driven. Due to that he's gonna send it over for review privetly (so as to not give away the plot details)
For the record I havent seen it yet so I cannot comment on the nature of his outline.
Brad, I agree from a 'scary' P.O.V. Root beats out Emulate. But from and assending P.O.V. as said.. Emulate is suposed to be the final step.
Story telling time;
The Druid starts out trying to live off the land, never taking more than neccessary. He learns to travers the lands as the animals do, especially learning from his chosen animal. This animal he gives the utmust reverance, and dedication This he has chosen as his Totem. He learns the ways of this animal, learning to listen to the land, and follow its guidance. (lvl 1 Wilderness Surv) As he continues on his chosen path, he begins to commune more with nature. Not just the animals but the plant life around him. They understand him, and he them. He is a freind to the land and the land gives him a boon. Never again will the land stand in his way, The vines will not grasp at him and the wild thorns bend to avoid hampering his journey. (lvl 2, No Movement Restrictions) Gratefull for their help the Druid strives to come closer to the life abundant around him. He learns that there is magic in all living creatures. Thru this magic, and his connection to the lands around him, he learns to call on those same plants that give him grace, to rise up and ensnarl his enemies, slowing there progress. (lvl 3, Magic Root) Having gained the trust of the land, he turns his devotions to that of his Totem animal. The lands show him the ways to observe, and come closer to the animal he has dedicated his life to. He grows wise in the ways of this beast, taking on the trait of his Totem, often becoming totally seperated from the world around him. He has become like his Totem, and as he reaches out for the magic inhearant in all creatures, the change begins. It starts as his faculties shift, and his veiw of the world begins to change. Soon he feels the magic inside himself begin to stir, and he realizes that he is not only in complete touch with the world around him but that of his Totem too. He has become a creature of magic and nature. He has become his Totem. He has reached the ultimate comunion between himself and nature. The glory of this realization is almost too much for him, as he begins to forget his other life. The one tied to that feeble body. The one tied to society, not free to traverse the land as nature had intended. (lvl 4, Emulate Totem)

Well thats how I see it anyway~

[Kale]

Brad, I agree from a 'scary' P.O.V. Root beats out Emulate. But from and assending P.O.V. as said.. Emulate is suposed to be the final step.

I only see that as necessary in a D&D campaign. Balance-wise I see root at level 4 and Totem at 3. *shrug*

[The Jackal]

(went hardcore and read the first sentence of every post, so this may not make sense)

The ability to use two weapons (ie daggers/claws) should be strictly governed in a reduced damage system.

Step up to the plate, pretend you have a pair, and ban "machine-gunning".

This unskilled ridiculous style of fighting should only be for high fantasy high body games.

If I were playing a were-hedgehog and was dual-wielding claw phys. reps machine-gunner style I would mow through some muthas. I am just a damn hedgehog though, and thusly shouldn't be able to do this.

If machine-gun damage can be negated the lethality of the dual-claw is reduced.

~than again what the hell am I doing posting anyway!

[Todd]

Ok Reid. You popped in there with another post while I was writing 'War and Peace.'
Again I'd rather not have every one and their brother running around in crinos form. Not saying this is a final ruling, just giving my opinion.

I am fuzzy about one point though.
If 4th lvl was underpowered before, why is it ok now that you've added an armor restriction, and moved the shifting portion to first level?

I see what you've done, generalizing the 'powers', I think I like a slightly more individual flavor, but that just me. And I agree, as before about the min/max sizes for animals being no smaller than a guthrie, and no larger than an orc. Ergo you could be a Wolf, but not a Mouse. You could be a Horse, but not a Blue Whale.

Like I said, the story above is how I see it working. Its the Mechanics that are the snag.

~

[Todd]

Doh! two more. Ok here goes.
2.0 - I see what your saying, just dont know if I agree. Like you said.. *shrug*
1.0 - Machine gunning can be deadly, but the deadliness of the dreaded Hedge-Hog is negated by the fact that all incoming damage would (technically) be vorpal. Most PC's in Armor with a long sword will win. I warrior in plate with a sheild will always win. Such is the plight of the lowely Hedge-Hog.

[The Jackal]

Heh!

If someone wants to be a were-aquatic animal then I say go for it! That would be friggin hilarious!

*PC laying on side with orange headband on (lame)*

"Whaddo I see?" asks a passerby.

"A blue whale" says Jackasso

"Sweet! Everybody bring some swords over here to cut up this meat!"

"Yeeeeehaaaawww!"

[Kale]

*ahem*

Not all of us hedgehogs die to an armored person with sword and shield

"Give me two daggers, or give me death!!!"