A few questions

Need help? Others (may) have answers!

Moderator: Admin

Post Reply
Phinkis
Town Member
Town Member
Posts: 179
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:06 am
Location: The Void

Parry and Vorpal Knockout

Post by Phinkis »

What exactly happens if someone parry's a 3 vorpal knockout?

Parry states:
A Warrior may spend a life point to reduce the damage delivered from any single frontal melee attack that has a number in the call to 0. This includes knockout, crush, vorpal, poison, etc. In addition, they may also parry disarm attacks.
Knockout states:
When you are hit with a knockout your current armor including combat reflexes and enhancements needs to be greater than the number called to resist being knocked unconscious for 5 minutes. If your character’s current armor total is equal to or less than the number called then the character is knocked out. This call is delivered by a number followed by the word "knockout".
So if you parry a 3 vorpal knockout it becomes a 0 vorpal knockout, since it's vorpal you don't count your armor, so for all the purpose of the call you have 0 armor. 0 armor is not enough to stop 0 knockout.


For the 3 vorpal poison knockout I don't see why you'd be poisoned by this since it's not effecting your LP. That said I don't like the way knockout works either. With the current way knockout works you can build a character that can swing a 10 knockout with just a 5 count and the kicker is you don't need to be a rogue to do it. A Valkyn’Vi has a 2 knockout for a 5 count. As a sage add 1 to this, level 4 brawler adds 5 to this and 2 levels of monk adds 2 more since you have 2 levels of brawler already. That seems a little unbalanced to me, especially when compared to a rogues knockout.

I'd like to see knockout work more like poison and disease, where it needs to affect your LP but still does damage, hitting someone in the head with a heavy object still hurts even if it doesn't knock them out. With this idea you can lower the numbers and standardize the count times. Change the Valkyn’Vi boon to 1. Rogue gets 1 at basic, 2 more at advanced and another 3 at master, for a total of 6 KO. Sages stay at 1 at advanced and sage buff is changed to 1. Doubling up on Iron Fists(second level of brawler and monk) gives 1 knockout and Knockout Blow(fourth level of Brawler) gives 3. I'd say keep saps at 2, since they require a commodity to upkeep. Just like the current system you can stack all of these. The charge time can then be done one of three ways. You can have a flat time you think is right for the skill, based off the nastiest possible call, with the above numbers is about 13 KO. This is very simple but then encourages people to build specific ways to maximize their KO. The next idea is to have it based off the number of knockout you intend to call, say a 5 count per point of KO. This is still fairly simple but might make 1 KO faster than intended for taking out unarmored people. The third way is most complex but I think the fairest. 1 KO would take a base count, say 10, plus an additional count for each additional point of KO, say 3. So a 5 KO would take a 22 count(10+3+3+3+3).


As far as resists/immunities go, I think they're fine negating the whole call. As an NPC at WH I've used a longer call knowing that it's more likely to be resisted. It makes more people with those resists/immunities feel useful. As a PC, knowing what to include in your calls and what not too is part of the challenge. Should you swing magic at this thing or is it going to be immune? I would say that the whole poisoned assassin weapon thing is sort of strange. If they're knocking someone out with their weapon it's probably not with the poisoned part.


Finally, my thoughts on Kandium. I can't say too much because I haven't been around long enough to really see it's effect but it sounds a little unbalanced. I guess what I really need to know is does a Vorpal call reduce Kandiun armor before Combat Reflexes? If it does the I guess it's fine the way it is, people just need to know how it works. If it still takes from Combat Reflexes first like normal damage then I'd say it's broken. In this game it's easy to have more Combat Reflexes then armor meaning you could keep that 9 points of Kandium a while.
User avatar
Ark
Town Member
Town Member
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:18 am
Location: (\__/) /\_/\

Re: Parry and Vorpal Knockout

Post by Ark »

Murgadin wrote:What exactly happens if someone parry's a 3 vorpal knockout?

Parry states:
A Warrior may spend a life point to reduce the damage delivered from any single frontal melee attack that has a number in the call to 0. This includes knockout, crush, vorpal, poison, etc. In addition, they may also parry disarm attacks.
Knockout states:
When you are hit with a knockout your current armor including combat reflexes and enhancements needs to be greater than the number called to resist being knocked unconscious for 5 minutes. If your character’s current armor total is equal to or less than the number called then the character is knocked out. This call is delivered by a number followed by the word "knockout".
So if you parry a 3 vorpal knockout it becomes a 0 vorpal knockout, since it's vorpal you don't count your armor, so for all the purpose of the call you have 0 armor. 0 armor is not enough to stop 0 knockout.

if you parry it, it has no effect, thats why its also called "avoid blow"

For the 3 vorpal poison knockout I don't see why you'd be poisoned by this since it's not effecting your LP. That said I don't like the way knockout works either. With the current way knockout works you can build a character that can swing a 10 knockout with just a 5 count and the kicker is you don't need to be a rogue to do it. A Valkyn’Vi has a 2 knockout for a 5 count. As a sage add 1 to this, level 4 brawler adds 5 to this and 2 levels of monk adds 2 more since you have 2 levels of brawler already. That seems a little unbalanced to me, especially when compared to a rogues knockout.

yes but you are devoting alot of skills and levels built around said skill, and its not even that good

I'd like to see knockout work more like poison and disease, where it needs to affect your LP but still does damage, hitting someone in the head with a heavy object still hurts even if it doesn't knock them out. With this idea you can lower the numbers and standardize the count times. Change the Valkyn’Vi boon to 1. Rogue gets 1 at basic, 2 more at advanced and another 3 at master, for a total of 6 KO. Sages stay at 1 at advanced and sage buff is changed to 1. Doubling up on Iron Fists(second level of brawler and monk) gives 1 knockout and Knockout Blow(fourth level of Brawler) gives 3. I'd say keep saps at 2, since they require a commodity to upkeep. Just like the current system you can stack all of these. The charge time can then be done one of three ways. You can have a flat time you think is right for the skill, based off the nastiest possible call, with the above numbers is about 13 KO. This is very simple but then encourages people to build specific ways to maximize their KO. The next idea is to have it based off the number of knockout you intend to call, say a 5 count per point of KO. This is still fairly simple but might make 1 KO faster than intended for taking out unarmored people. The third way is most complex but I think the fairest. 1 KO would take a base count, say 10, plus an additional count for each additional point of KO, say 3. So a 5 KO would take a 22 count(10+3+3+3+3).

it is unlikely to change


As far as resists/immunities go, I think they're fine negating the whole call. As an NPC at WH I've used a longer call knowing that it's more likely to be resisted. It makes more people with those resists/immunities feel useful. As a PC, knowing what to include in your calls and what not too is part of the challenge. Should you swing magic at this thing or is it going to be immune? I would say that the whole poisoned assassin weapon thing is sort of strange. If they're knocking someone out with their weapon it's probably not with the poisoned part.

no there not knocking them out with it, poison does its own thing

Finally, my thoughts on Kandium. I can't say too much because I haven't been around long enough to really see it's effect but it sounds a little unbalanced. I guess what I really need to know is does a Vorpal call reduce Kandiun armor before Combat Reflexes? If it does the I guess it's fine the way it is, people just need to know how it works. If it still takes from Combat Reflexes first like normal damage then I'd say it's broken. In this game it's easy to have more Combat Reflexes then armor meaning you could keep that 9 points of Kandium a while.

you take damage from Combat reflexes first, then armor, then life, so a warrior wearing Kandium would have at least 9 CR, not including buffs, discipline, poitions, talismans, etc.
answers in bold
Phinkis
Town Member
Town Member
Posts: 179
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:06 am
Location: The Void

Post by Phinkis »

Ark wrote:if you parry it, it has no effect, thats why its also called "avoid blow"
The way Parry is worded it doesn't say the attack has no effect, it says it reduces the number in the call to 0. I know what the skill is called, and what it's meant to do but I'm wondering why it doesn't just say exactly what you just did, that the attack has no effect.

"A Warrior may spend a life point to negate any single frontal melee attack that has a number in the call. This includes calls also containing; knockout, crush, vorpal, poison, etc. In addition, they may also parry disarm attacks."

This wording would make more sense in my opinion, I'm just wondering why it's worded the way it is and I included an example where by the current wording of Parry and Knockout, there could be confusing.
yes but you are devoting alot of skills and levels built around said skill, and its not even that good
I agree that it's a hefty investment to make the build that I used as an example but the point is it's still very unbalanced, especially when compared to the rogue's Knockout. If something is unbalanced and, "not even that good" then that's a problem with the skill that should be looked at.
it is unlikely to change
I hope that's not true. From the posts written here I think it's fairly obvious that the current way KO works is confusing to some and down right worthless to others. It needs reviewing and maybe my idea isn't the greatest either, but my hope was to get people thinking about changing it.
no there not knocking them out with it, poison does its own thing
I'm sorry, my wording wasn't the greatest here. The idea was that an assassin who has poisoned their blade should be allowed to omit the poison when swinging if they so desired so they could still swing 3 vorpal knockout without adding the poison to the call and without loosing the poison applied to their weapon. Why would an assassin used the poisoned portion of their weapon to knockout a dwarf for instance?
you take damage from Combat reflexes first, then armor, then life, so a warrior wearing Kandium would have at least 9 CR, not including buffs, discipline, poitions, talismans,
Your example confuses me. A full warrior had 6 Combat Reflexes as far as I know, not 9 and I was also of the belief that only Kandium armor pieces grant the protection from vorpal. I may be mistaken but I don't think Kandium stacks with any other armor, including Combat Reflexes to determine if you have Kandium protection.

I know the order damage is supposed to be applied in, I was asking if Kandium was a special case since it already overrides the order vorpal is applied. If, while wearing 9 points of Kandium armor, you're hit with a 5 vorpal then take that damage from Combat Reflexes first then unlikely that you're going to loose the Kandium protection. But since Kandium is already a special case, if you took the 5 vorpal from your actual armor, your Kandium armor value would drop to 4 and you would loose your protection, effectively stopping one vorpal attack as intended.
GM-Mike
GM
Posts: 4491
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:14 pm
Contact:

Post by GM-Mike »

You are correct in the intention of kandium. Josh has given just one of the ways it has been misinterpreted. It's not his fault, the current write up is a poor revision of an even worse original. Kandium is not supposed to be that good, which is why it is relatively cheap to make.
User avatar
Woden
Town Member
Town Member
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 10:29 pm
Contact:

Post by Woden »

A VERY interesting point with the 0 vs 0 thing. That will have to be looked at.

As for '3 Vorpal Poison KO' it is my opinion that the definition of Vorpal still stands and the Poison and KO take effect.
Additionally to Atrums question the 3 is NOT taken as standard damage. It is unfortunately as useless as your coccyx. It is only indicative of 'how' the call was delivered.

Any call with the term Knock Out in it is, in my opinion, non damaging by default.

You hear a # called, its damage
You hear a # called w/ KO its NOT damage


Your Kandium analogy is correct, with the exception that the way its used it could actually stop several Vorpal attacks depending on the amount of damage taken. Using your 5 it would stop 2 before losing effect.
Example,
Warrior; 7LP, 9AP(Kandium), 6CR
'5 Vorpal' (converted to normal)
Warrior; 7LP, 9AP(Kandium), 1CR
'5 Vorpal' (converted to normal)
Warrior; 7LP, 5AP(Kandium), 0CR
'5 Vorpal'
Warrior; 2LP, 5AP(Kandium), 0CR

Now if the damage taken was less, say '1 Vorpal' from a Swashbuckler..
Warrior; 7LP, 9AP(Kandium), 6CR
'1 Vorpal' (converted to normal)
Warrior; 7LP, 9AP(Kandium), 5CR
'1 Vorpal' (converted to normal)
Warrior; 7LP, 9AP(Kandium), 4CR
'1 Vorpal' (coverted to normal)
Warrior; 7LP, 9AP(Kandium), 3CR
'1 Vorpal' (coverted to normal)
Warrior; 7LP, 9AP(Kandium), 2CR
'1 Vorpal' (converted to normal)
Warrior; 7LP, 9AP(Kandium), 1CR
'1 Vorpal' (converted to normal)
Warrior; 7LP, 9AP(Kandium), 0CR
'1 Vorpal' (converted to normal)
Warrior; 7LP, 8AP(Kandium), 0CR
'1 Vorpal'
Warrior; 6LP, 8AP(Kandium), 0CR
'1 Vorpal'
Warrior; 5LP, 8AP(Kandium), 0CR
GM-Mike
GM
Posts: 4491
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:14 pm
Contact:

Post by GM-Mike »

And now here's an example where two GMs disagree. I knew you wouldn't have to wait long to find one of those :lol:

Todd (and Josh) is right that that is how it is being played, taken from CR first, but I'm almost positive that that was not the intention of it.
User avatar
Ark
Town Member
Town Member
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:18 am
Location: (\__/) /\_/\

Post by Ark »

to my warrior combat reflexes, yes i was wrong, i was thinking of something else.

to my Kandium discription, i said i didnt know how it was worded, and i THOUGHT it did what i said, i dont have the craftsman list.

i do feel this armor ruins assassins, and swashes, and that if this armor stays the touch of death should be turned back to a sleep skill
User avatar
Zeira
Town Member
Town Member
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:56 pm
Location: Naperville, IL

Post by Zeira »

I hope everybody who actually is using Kandium is doing it the right way. I think it would be simpler if it just made the first vorpal attack that hits be turned to normal damage and can't resist another vorpal attack until the armor has been full repaired. Even if the armor still hasn't taken any damage it still needs to be repaired to regain the ability to negate the vorpal part of the call. There has to be at least 1 point of Armor left to negate the vorpal. That way the amount of CR isn't even a issue.

Actually even that sounds a little to complicated. Just get rid of Kandium. I like that idea better. Then there won't be anymore misconceptions about it and we can all get along. Kandium armor is tearing our family apart! :cry:
User avatar
cole45
Town Member
Town Member
Posts: 3094
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:42 pm
Contact:

Post by cole45 »

dier_cire wrote:http://www.finalhavenlarp.com/phpBB2/vi ... php?t=4687



where's that exactly?

If you decided it in the off season, it should be there. What you really have is a field ruling to accommodate the players who don't read the rules.
It's in the GM forum where the decision to apply a poorly worded rule in a uniform manner belongs. Again, this can change.

Kandium ruins assasins.
witch hunters ruin empaths. That's not fair. Potions make healers useless, that's not fair. There's spells that give you press making orcs pointless....... on and on.
Travis Cole
Phinkis
Town Member
Town Member
Posts: 179
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:06 am
Location: The Void

Post by Phinkis »

Ovak Stonecrusher wrote:And now here's an example where two GMs disagree. I knew you wouldn't have to wait long to find one of those :lol:

Todd (and Josh) is right that that is how it is being played, taken from CR first, but I'm almost positive that that was not the intention of it.
Well I hope my post helped by exposing where the confusion is coming from. I can see the point that against a one vorpal swing removing armor from Kandium first, it makes it kind of weak, but the other way it's too effective. I mean those examples were warrior CR only, no buffs or disciplines added in. Let's look at a warrior knight with a sage buff. I'm sure that's not all that uncommon. That's 11 CR, more than they have in Kandium, and what about helmet AP? Does that come before or after the Kandium? The point here being that if vorpal still bypassed CR and hit the Kandium directly it's obviously not overpowered at that point. So maybe an adjustment needs to be made to make it slightly more effective against 1 vorpal. The easy option here is to lower the amount of Kandium required to gain protection. Not much mind you, maybe lower it to 7, the top end of medium armor. This way a full suit will still only stop one 3+ vorpal call but can eat a few 1 vorpals before loosing it's effect. I know this allows more people to wear Kandium but really would it be that unbalancing as long as it worked as intended?
User avatar
cole45
Town Member
Town Member
Posts: 3094
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:42 pm
Contact:

Post by cole45 »

I tink for it's cost, it should not stack with cr. toss that in. You can EITHER have your cr, or some kandium. of course, you could just let your kandium get blown up and then use cr, so maybe that's not good either. I like the idea of a single "reduce voral damage" that's rechargeable like the Parrying blade.
Travis Cole
User avatar
Ark
Town Member
Town Member
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:18 am
Location: (\__/) /\_/\

Post by Ark »

cole45 wrote:
Kandium ruins assasins.

yup, an item ruins 4th level discilpline skills.

witch hunters ruin empaths. That's not fair.

Yes it is, as you have to invest in a discipline to do so, not get an item that lets you resist magic

Potions make healers useless, that's not fair.

I agree, Alchemy is broke

There's spells that give you press making orcs pointless

I agree, arcane is broke

....... on and on.

I agree again
answers in bold
User avatar
cole45
Town Member
Town Member
Posts: 3094
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:42 pm
Contact:

Post by cole45 »

so what your really saying is that there should only be skills, no items , no potions, no crafted special items? that is a different game.
Travis Cole
User avatar
Atrum Draconus
Town Member
Town Member
Posts: 1316
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 10:45 am
Location: Look over your shoulder... better yet... just keep your eyes forward.
Contact:

Post by Atrum Draconus »

Todd those two conclusions aren't consistent. Poison has to affect life points or surge but the call does not do damage yet the poison still affects the person. I can understand it because then the poison surges as it's not attatched to the number, but in the call you have a number in the front. I absolutely hate to even suggest this and want to slap myself for doing so but if it makes things clear should the call be 3 vorpal KO vorpal poison? That brooks no question, the KO has a number so it can be parried, the poison surges if you don't avoid the blow somehow and both are vorpal. Any interpretation of that call any other way than you are poisoned and KO's would just be someone trying to get around taking it. So calls would need to be how they are built. if you charged a 9 and a vorpal and had items that gave you poison and ko (all though I don't ever see why any item would give you ko and not add on but anything is possible) the call would be. 9 vorpal poison vorpal KO. GAWHD, I wanna roshambo myself, but if people want simple and fewer misunderstandings then that's really how it needs to be. Or else it will be left up to whoever is taking the call and their interpretation

0 vs. 0 is self explanatory, KO has to beat your armor protection number so a 0 KO (0 poison, 0 disease) will NEVER EVER do anything.

I thought that was the point of armor being first to go, that if you had any special things on your armor you lost it when the armor was gone but the CR would still protect you like armor. When did the order of damage mitigation change? It used to be armor, cr, costume, life then costume went away. Did the order change then?

[/b]
Atrum Draconus
House Draconus
Hand of King Chimeron Draconus
ANNOSUS DRACONUS!
User avatar
Ark
Town Member
Town Member
Posts: 1148
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:18 am
Location: (\__/) /\_/\

Post by Ark »

cole45 wrote:so what your really saying is that there should only be skills, no items , no potions, no crafted special items? that is a different game.
the siblings and i were talking about just that, no potions, no spells, no items other than basic armor and weapons, no advance rules.

it would be a very pleasent game, the monsters would be weaker, as i have seen monster REALLY tough because of some items or advanced rules, it would be really easy to police each other, your survival would depend less on how many magic items you have and more on how you play your character, its never going to happen but its always good to have a dream
If it storms or snows, or the sun smiles on us. The day burning hot, or ice cold of night. Dusty are our faces, but joyful are our minds! - Panzerlied
______________________________________________________________________
Brian: Do not respond, quote, argue, debate, or try to start a conversation about anything I say or post, directly or indirectly, specifically or implicitly. At the very least I will consider it stalking, and going further consider it harassing, belittling, demeaning, mocking, or insulting. I will immediately report it as such and push to request that your forum privileges be at least suspended or terminated, and going further request your LARP attendance privileges be suspended or terminated as per the Final Haven Code of Conduct. this is your notice and warning.
______________________________________________________________________
If you have an opinion on something I say, or a particular topic, but would prefer to keep your opinion private (or complain) then CLICK HERE! to send a private message to GM-Mike the head GM and let him know.
Post Reply