PVP and how it adds to the Game

Amagus · Post by **Amagus** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 4:35 pm

Right - few game stops because the final battle - when it'd be do or die for everyone on both sides - never happened. I fear what that would have been like. It may have gone smoothly, but I doubt it.

Take this simple senario:

Two sides are fighting. An Orc warrior slips behind the (good) PCs and is sneaking up on one of their number. Another (good) PC, a little farther away, glances at the Orc.

An NPC Orc would then shout out "ARMORED ORC"- he's been spotted and should identify himself correctly, even though it warns his otherwise oblivious target. Everyone promptly turns around and kills him quickly.

A PC Orc, on the other hand, would stay quiet, slip in behind his target and kill him. A game stop is immediately called.

PC 2: HEY! I saw you! I would have warned my friend if I knew what you were!

Orc: You were told beforehand that people wearing this color tabbard were Armored Orcs! I didn't need to reveal my position!

PC 2: I couldn't see your tabbard! Ed was in the way!

Orc: Then you couldn't make me out clearly enough to identify me.

PC 2: YOU'RE A NINE FOOT TALL ORC IN PLATE MAIL! ED'S A FREAKIN' GUTHRIE!

PC 1: And I certainly would have heard a huge creature in plate mail approaching from behind!

Orc: I can move pretty quietly in armor, and I'm sure my character would be even better at it than I am!

And on and on the arguement goes. Bend the situation one way and PC 1 dies. Bend it the other and the Orc dies. Both PCs, with high stakes in their characters, will argue their side to death - killing the game.

I'm sure one of the main motivations behind Final Haven factions working so hard to workout their differences non-violently has been we all understand what kind of OOG nightmare we'd have if things degenerated into large-scale PC-on-PC conflict.

Lambic · Post by **Lambic** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 4:43 pm

Alright let me go out on a limb here. What this all really comes down to is faith. (Yes I am stealing a bit from a certain Mr. Takitaki):

Do you have faith in the other PCs to only do something in Character?
Do you have faith in the GMs to deal with a situation fairly and imaginatively if someone breaks your faith in the other PCs?
Do you have faith in the other players to come up with interesting imaginative PCs that act in character and not randomly (unless that is in character)?
Do you have faith in a system that so heavily requires other players to be honest with each other?

The rules do not, as I believe they shouldn't, force morality on a player or character. Is up to the player to decide what type of morals they want they're PC to have. Neither the GMs or the Rules dictate any of that. IMHO that makes for a more interesting game. My character is allowed to have moral delima (sp?) over what actions he should take, including killing another PC. Lambic is a character who lives by a code of honor, that is publicly known (check my sig). He has had to deal with situations that contrast with that code. He has to decide if actions he feels would be better for the haven but go against his code are worth commiting. He is a soldier, a trained killer (if not a good one), NPC or PC he will attack it all the same, if the situation is correct and I would hate to have my roleplaying held back by the system. Their are definitely PCs whom he has considered killing for the better of the town. Of course the he would have to consider his on morals and honor before he would do this, that he is allowed this moments with in this system is a great things about it, I think.

Now the problem with freedom, like this system allows, is that someone has the freedom to act in a way that is not goes against everyone. This is where faith comes in. I have faith that if its a PC they did it for an in character reason, not an out of game reason. I have faith that they out of game understand that in game there will likely be consequences for those in character actions, and not get upset about it. I have faith that the GMs will come up with creative and interesting, often even heroic, reasons for an NPC to kill a PC, or vice versa. I also have faith that the GMs will creatively and imaginatively deal with someone that decided to break my faith in the players.

(sorry if this isn't exactly one straight thought, I wrote it over an hour at work and kept getting interrupted with...work.)

Post by **GM_Chris** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 4:59 pm

Actually I am unsure the NPC would have identified themselves without a "what do I see"

This event Pentag had a bunch of troops and so they were not wearing the appropriate phys reps just like many of our NPC's do not.

Now if they were all PC's I would have requiered them to be phys repped properly.

Even so I must say Brad did an overwhelming great job makign sure his peeps all looked like Like his crew since they were all in armor and what not.

You do bring up a good point about race height in the game. Some LARPS require your real height match your character height. Like I could not play an orc since I am too small.

Just a note

Post by **Kale** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:37 pm

We did our best to properly phys-rep as best we could. We had masks, paint, silver sashes and tabbards for those who did not have armor phys-reps, armor phys-reps for those who had it, and brown sashes and tabbards for those who did not have light armor phys-reps. You do the best with what you can get. I can pretty much assure you though that we didn't have any sneaky Orcs in our party. Some really loud ones that constantly gave away our position if anyone had been around to hear, but no sneaky ones.

When it comes down to it, I'm here to roleplay. Gamestops happen, but we do our best to try and avoid them. It is a fact of LARPing that they will occur, whether it is PvP or NvP.

Dredge · Post by **Dredge** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:29 pm

I think Lambic may have summed up my thoughts, the good points of most of the other posts here, and really set it about where I'll have to accept it. Or at the least, it spurred the right parts of my brain to make me happy.

You have to have faith that the lack of control will lead to positive rather than negative results.

You have to hope that the other players are going to make characters and not ego based killing machines.

If the bad things that can happen do happen, when faith fails, realize its not your fault, maintain the moral highground, and honorably accept the results, because it makes you the better person in the end. Its being a good sport.

Donovan Thynedar · Post by **Donovan Thynedar** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:54 pm

Indeed, good sir. Indeed.

Amagus · Post by **Amagus** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:17 pm

An NPC must alway announce what they are when spotted. a PC's reaction can be very different depending on if he/she's being charged by a rat or an ogre.

Last event I was downed by a charging creature I think was the beast. I don't know for sure because the NPC never announced himself, just ran at me, ignored the Sleep I hit him with, and promptly beat me down with machine-gunned 2 Crushes ( I also don't think Crushes should ever be machine-gunned) while Charging.

Apparently Amagus keeps his eyes closed. If he had been allowed to see what was approaching (if the NPC had announced himself when seen), Amagus would have behaved very different (Run Away!). Not announcing yourself when spotted is just cheese.

I sucked up the incident and fell to the ground bleeding to death, but I was quite pissed OOG.

Regardless, the details of my example aren't important - I'm just trying to illistrate how easily a game-killing arguement can occur when neither side is willing to give an inch.

Even if PC 1 and 2 suck it up and keep quite, they feel cheated and unhappy (like I did when downed by the unannounced behemoth)

I just don't think it's a good idea to purposely construct situations where this can happen.

Post by **GM_Chris** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:39 pm

Doug there is nothing in our hand book about the "what do I see" and an NPC then must stop and announce themselves. We did that at CARPS, but we don't do that in FH unless we are not wearing the appropriate costuming.

As time has gone on we have done a better and better job of costuming.

Now with the Beast he was always wearing exactly the same costume AND he was wearing the same mask. When you look at the pics you can see trevor played one and I played 1, only difference was the boots.

The idea that a masked properly costume NPC has to stop and identify themselves when asked is insane.

As for purposefully created the situation. Would it make you happy if I tell you that we have been lieing to you all and Pentag was always NPC'd and NEVER EVER made a decision without us instructing him first? Would that make people happy? Would that some how change the event in your mind?

So to sum up...No an NPC does not have to stop to identifyu themselves unless they are wearing no costume. Our goal every event though is to never be in that position. There is no difference between an NPC and a PC when you are looking at a one on one encounter

Dredge · Post by **Dredge** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:40 pm

I'm not saying I approve of the experiment, or cheesy situations where description is lacking. However, I will accept that the experiment happened, my PC's are gone, and that I'll be forced to spend money and time coming up with another good PC.

I reserve my right to complain though. Not necessarily directed at anyone, but in general.

Post by **GM_Chris** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:43 pm

who said you didn't Dredge

Post by **GM_Chris** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:05 pm

I find myself getting frustrated here because I don't think we are getting to the root of the problem.

Doug, I keep hearing what your saying about PvP, but from a being a GM for the last 1000 years I have seen that same crap from NPC's every single event. Now when an NPC does it well it is bad, but people tend to get over it. When a PC does it is 100000 times worse.

Now this event we as gm's watched and I have to tell you I saw nothing but consistent good role playing be Pentag's crew. heck they stayed in character while in their cabin. I would almost say I saw them in character more than the PC's. granted their characters were a bit 1 dimensional, but those are usually the harder to stay in character. Every time it was pointed out they were doing something wrong they corrected their actions without bickering. Basically I think on a whole they did a better job than most NPC's we get. (though as I said they were 1 dimensional)

I am also hearing about fear of someone coming in who’s goal is to just kill PC's, but also RP's his 1 dimensional character very well. Now lets look at when I tell a person to go in and play a troll and kill everyone they see. This is the same scenario as the PC. Both are coming in to kill a PC. Both have the same motivation. Who will twist the rules more? It isn’t who is the PC and who is an NPC. The person who twists the rules will be based on who the person and the morals of that person.

SOOOO what is the difference. Why is PK bad and a bunch of murderous NPC's plot? The root problem is when you are PK'd you take it personally, or at least more personally. When an NPC kills you it is more like being hit by a tornado. It sucks, but it was not personal.

Dredge · Post by **Dredge** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:42 pm

I kind of find it interesting I started this and now feel at peace, but it seems to continue to vex others. I'll give this a shot, beyond the taking it personal thing, which is very much part of it.

Lack of Purpose: If I get killed on a plot, sweet. I died trying to accomplish something that was part of the greater story. I know that the NPC was put out there for a purpose beyond the GMs gratification to see if he could push around the player base or overcome them.

The Two Dimensional Killer: You see a player hanging out who is an utter newb. He seems confused more than anything else and doesn't really RP. Just another face in the Haven, figure he'll just be here to kill monsters or some such. You try to be friendly and forget about him. He waits a few games, a few people seem to get along with him... and then he releases a zombie horde, enhanced by worse things, while half of town is on plots, destroying the poor fools leftover. Utter whipe of a huge group of PCs.

Its happened in other LARPs, it can happen here. Its like Columbine. Its rare that a GM sends in a longtime Wolf among the Lambs.

The Disruption: GM side. You had finally gotten around to running some plots that more deeply involved some of the PCs characters, specific characters for specific reason.... then they are all gone. Oops.

Not to mention that the plot you were setting up may be suddenly interrupted by a sudden PC plot going down.

Moral Twists: Most smart people, even jerks, pick their battles. They will pick arguments when it most benefits them, which is rarely when they are playing NPCs.

Post by **GM_Chris** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:25 pm

Its happened in other LARPs, it can happen here. Its like Columbine. Its rare that a GM sends in a longtime Wolf among the Lambs.

Actually there is no way that can happen in our game.

The Pentag thing happened after 14 years of game play and Brad telling us he was handing his character over as an NPC.

OOps that's right he was an NPC. He was an NPC ever since he joined Florin.

So as I was trying to say. We lied. He was an NPC. We developed the plot, but the plot was open ended as we asked him to play his NPC as he would a PC.

Forexample, lets take Robert. He is also played like a PC, even though he is an NPC.

I refuse to tell you the next phase of the plots, but I assure you that everyone was part of a grand master plot that we as GM's felt requiered a great tragedy. We actually thought the PC's would always win, but with great cost. Seemed like it would be fun. Because of logistic reasons we requiered to give Brad control of his group of wandering monsters so we could concentrate on the rest of the event.

So basically to sum up it is impossible for a PC that was at a few events to summon up a zombie army of death, or an army of anything, and kill everyone left in a town.

Amagus · Post by **Amagus** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:38 am

Doug, I keep hearing what your saying about PvP, but from a being a GM for the last 1000 years I have seen that same crap from NPC's every single event. Now when an NPC does it well it is bad, but people tend to get over it. When a PC does it is 100000 times worse.

Yes – that’s my point. It’s bad, and such situations should be avoided whenever possible. Encouraging their occurrence is not good.

Now this event we as gm's watched and I have to tell you I saw nothing but consistent good role playing be Pentag's crew. heck they stayed in character while in their cabin. I would almost say I saw them in character more than the PC's. granted their characters were a bit 1 dimensional, but those are usually the harder to stay in character. Every time it was pointed out they were doing something wrong they corrected their actions without bickering. Basically I think on a whole they did a better job than most NPC's we get. (though as I said they were 1 dimensional)

Agreed. I saw nothing wrong with the way Pentag’s group behaved and acted. Given their role they played it well. It’s the general event setup I think was a mistake – PC army vs. PC army.

I am also hearing about fear of someone coming in who’s goal is to just kill PC's, but also RP's his 1 dimensional character very well. Now lets look at when I tell a person to go in and play a troll and kill everyone they see. This is the same scenario as the PC. Both are coming in to kill a PC. Both have the same motivation. Who will twist the rules more? It isn’t who is the PC and who is an NPC. The person who twists the rules will be based on who the person and the morals of that person.

I must disagree 95% here. Yeah, some people might take even the death of their NPC personally. I think I’ve seen one or two - briefly. But there’s a significant difference in investment in time, money, effort, and creative thought between a detailed PC and a nameless faceless troll consisting of stats on a card and five minutes of play.

SOOOO what is the difference. Why is PK bad and a bunch of murderous NPC's plot? The root problem is when you are PK'd you take it personally, or at least more personally. When an NPC kills you it is more like being hit by a tornado. It sucks, but it was not personal

That’s one of the contributing points I’ve mentioned, yes.

I’m trying to have a reasonable discussion here, but Chris is starting to fly off the handle, apparently misreading my posts, and get downright insulting. I won’t even try to address his last post. My part in this discussion is ended.

Peace420 · Post by **Peace420** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:41 am

I'm sure one of the main motivations behind Final Haven factions working so hard to workout their differences non-violently has been we all understand what kind of OOG nightmare we'd have if things degenerated into large-scale PC-on-PC conflict.

Doug I would tend to disagree with this. Both having wanted to slit a few throats and being the object of said desire by half the game for the first 2 years I can honestly tell you that fear of death and the fact that at the beginning we needed every swordarm available were the only reasons I didn't proceed with it. I have actually thwarted WAY more PVP than I've been a part of over the years. Trust me, ALOT of people have thought that alot of our problems would go away with Arthos going away.

There have been many occasions where open PC-on-PC conflict seemed inevitable but I highly doubt any of those people involved thought for one second. "This is going to be an OOG nightmare". I know Colin wasn't thinking that when he attacked Dallid for letting Pentag get away in the first place, I know I wasn't thinking that when Reginald accepted an offer for escort from a man he left behind on the battlefield. I know I wasn't thinking that any of the times I've kept Arthos from dying at the hands of PC's. I know I wasn't thinking that when at the first event Dave's character was saying "let's kill all the elves except that tall healer, he can be useful"