Yeah. Well, statistically I've met more people than my PC ever would, am a Forensic Biology major, hate many people, and definitely could get away with it. Oh, and I don't make illusions as to inherent goodness of mankind. Anybody can be made a murderer under the right conditions. Never said PK isn't loosely real.
I think I'd like to start up a PK/PVP discussion thread, so more people can just comment on the game here and I can shut up for a bit. Any suggetions where to post that?
April Event 2006
Moderator: Admin
Chris:
You can't have it both ways
The more I think on this, and it was posted on the GM board this was actually success because we learned alot and I really believe that with the smallest of tweeks this could have been a success.
As I said in my begginning post that with the very smallest of tweeks this could have been the best event ever.
Was it the worse event to date? Yes
You can't have it both ways
Just make another topic under general discussion or the find the old one that I think went to about 7 pages.Dredge wrote: I think I'd like to start up a PK/PVP discussion thread, so more people can just comment on the game here and I can shut up for a bit. Any suggetions where to post that?
Death=Adder
One of these days...I'm going to cut you into little pieces...
~Pink Floyd~
One of these days...I'm going to cut you into little pieces...
~Pink Floyd~
Sure I can!
It was a successful event even if it was our worse event ever. It was our worse event ever because we have soo many good events th bar is pretty high. I guarenttee you that this might have been an average or even kicken event based on some otehr LARPS. (None I have ever attended, but I hear stories)
It was a successful event even if it was our worse event ever. It was our worse event ever because we have soo many good events th bar is pretty high. I guarenttee you that this might have been an average or even kicken event based on some otehr LARPS. (None I have ever attended, but I hear stories)
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
Pictures!
By the way, Wes has uploaded 140 of the pictures.
Jump back to the index and he's started a new thread for them.
If you have pics of your own, put your links there.
If you want to comment on them, head there too.
Jump back to the index and he's started a new thread for them.
If you have pics of your own, put your links there. If you want to comment on them, head there too.
Arthur Dreese - West Michigan
I just want to see tomorrow, day by day to just survive. / But this place is built to kill me. No one here gets out alive. ~Alice Cooper "Cold Machines"
"Beware the designer who does not design to play his own game." ~Justin Achilli, Vampire: the Masquerade Developer
I just want to see tomorrow, day by day to just survive. / But this place is built to kill me. No one here gets out alive. ~Alice Cooper "Cold Machines"
"Beware the designer who does not design to play his own game." ~Justin Achilli, Vampire: the Masquerade Developer
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Kalphoenix
- Town Member
- Posts: 817
- Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:45 pm
I think Chris (and several others) summed it up by the statement that yes, this was the worst event to date, but also, yes...the quality of the game is VERY VERY high, so, in comparision, it looked bad. It was a learning experience, and we move on from this point. I really don't think there is anyone who can say they took nothing away from this event. There was some great roleplaying and I really enjoyed the NPC roles that were availiable to me, especially the ghosts.
I consider myself a horrible, horrible roleplayer this weekend...when Chris was playing Pobble, I had the impossible task of trying not to crack up ("Is it under here?" "OH NO! I can't believe I looked under there! WAAAAHHHHGGGHHH!"). I was literally biting into the sides of my cheeks to keep from busting a gut.
I guess my biggest fear is that combat will continue to be this deadly, and corpse desecration will become the rule. I feel that the threat of permanant death is already quite sufficient with the new rules.
I have no qualms about PVP in final haven, because, yes, I do feel that the absence of player combat takes a LOT away from the game. I don't think FH rewards players for PKing (Like an online game usually does), but it doesn't penalize them, roleplaying takes care of that and makes it player modulated. It also adds to roleplaying by making people (Hopefully) not blindly trust everyone who walks into town. In a tabletop game with 5-8 players, PK is selfish and anoying, in a 30+ FH LARP, it works because there are so many different things going on and doesn't put all the need for character interaction on the GMs.
Ok, this next part is SLIGHTY off topic as to the event, but it was brought up, so I think I'll comment. Feel free to skip.
On character death, I have to disagree that it's dumb to let someone come back with their character at 0-level. I know I've had discussions with folks about this who disagree, but I don't think it should be unacceptable. It doesn't nessesarily mean that the person has a problem and needs to "Step away from the game" because they have lost their grip on reality. I think it's actually the opposite. In most cases, most people will be content to start a new character, but it's a nice thought to realize that, no, these AREN'T real people, and it's an option. Yes, there are instances where this would not be acceptable, like, the character jumped into a volcano or fell off the world or something, or someone who rushes into a mess every game and gets killed. I believe the discussion was had about comparing it to "The Lord of the Rings" and what if the would have ressurected Boramir, or something would have happened where he would have been able to come back. Supposibly this would have "cheapened" the scene. I dissagree. I think his dying is the easy route of not having to deal with the concequences of trying to take the ring from Frodo and loosing the other two hobbits. If he would have been brought back, he would have had to deal with the guilt of these issues, and how it would have changed him. If we want to continue with comparing it to "The Lord of the Rings" (Which isn't really the best comparison, because Final Haven is so much better!!!), lets look at other characters in the book. Frodo: Pretty much died repeatedly (First time he was 'saved' by elvish magic), Gandalf: Most assuredly died. Came back because he 'had a purpose' but didn't really remember aspects of his former life except as memories of someone elses life (Cool roleplaying idea). Sauron...yeah. So, sorry if that was a little jumbled, but those are my thoughts. It shouldn't happen without reason, or effect to the character in some way, but it should be allowable, and not have the player's sanity called into question.
I consider myself a horrible, horrible roleplayer this weekend...when Chris was playing Pobble, I had the impossible task of trying not to crack up ("Is it under here?" "OH NO! I can't believe I looked under there! WAAAAHHHHGGGHHH!"). I was literally biting into the sides of my cheeks to keep from busting a gut.
I guess my biggest fear is that combat will continue to be this deadly, and corpse desecration will become the rule. I feel that the threat of permanant death is already quite sufficient with the new rules.
I have no qualms about PVP in final haven, because, yes, I do feel that the absence of player combat takes a LOT away from the game. I don't think FH rewards players for PKing (Like an online game usually does), but it doesn't penalize them, roleplaying takes care of that and makes it player modulated. It also adds to roleplaying by making people (Hopefully) not blindly trust everyone who walks into town. In a tabletop game with 5-8 players, PK is selfish and anoying, in a 30+ FH LARP, it works because there are so many different things going on and doesn't put all the need for character interaction on the GMs.
Ok, this next part is SLIGHTY off topic as to the event, but it was brought up, so I think I'll comment. Feel free to skip.
On character death, I have to disagree that it's dumb to let someone come back with their character at 0-level. I know I've had discussions with folks about this who disagree, but I don't think it should be unacceptable. It doesn't nessesarily mean that the person has a problem and needs to "Step away from the game" because they have lost their grip on reality. I think it's actually the opposite. In most cases, most people will be content to start a new character, but it's a nice thought to realize that, no, these AREN'T real people, and it's an option. Yes, there are instances where this would not be acceptable, like, the character jumped into a volcano or fell off the world or something, or someone who rushes into a mess every game and gets killed. I believe the discussion was had about comparing it to "The Lord of the Rings" and what if the would have ressurected Boramir, or something would have happened where he would have been able to come back. Supposibly this would have "cheapened" the scene. I dissagree. I think his dying is the easy route of not having to deal with the concequences of trying to take the ring from Frodo and loosing the other two hobbits. If he would have been brought back, he would have had to deal with the guilt of these issues, and how it would have changed him. If we want to continue with comparing it to "The Lord of the Rings" (Which isn't really the best comparison, because Final Haven is so much better!!!), lets look at other characters in the book. Frodo: Pretty much died repeatedly (First time he was 'saved' by elvish magic), Gandalf: Most assuredly died. Came back because he 'had a purpose' but didn't really remember aspects of his former life except as memories of someone elses life (Cool roleplaying idea). Sauron...yeah. So, sorry if that was a little jumbled, but those are my thoughts. It shouldn't happen without reason, or effect to the character in some way, but it should be allowable, and not have the player's sanity called into question.
Mike: For the majority of you, choosing to use a packet instead of a weapon is a hindrance because your aims suck.
Travis: Crap he is on to me.
Travis: Crap he is on to me.
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Kale
- Site Admin
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- Location: lurking in the shadows
- Contact:
This will regularly be the case in PvP, I HIGHLY doubt it will be the case in NvP. The difference is that the NPC usually has a "general motive" against the "general populace" where the PC usually has a "specific motive" against the "specific person". In this particular instance, you're dealing with a Psycho, who has always desecrated bodies. Pentag wanted to open a "Bar and Grill" after systematically executing and burning PC after PC in another character's Forge.Kalphoenix wrote:I guess my biggest fear is that combat will continue to be this deadly, and corpse desecration will become the rule. I feel that the threat of permanant death is already quite sufficient with the new rules.
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Donovan Thynedar
- Town Member
- Posts: 628
- Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:18 am
- Location: With his beloved at the end of all things.
- Contact:
Forgive me if this is a bit addled, but I've only recently emerged from my post-event coma.
A few comments:
- Kudos to the Pentag-people. I expected serious savagery, and I got it. There was lots and lots of perma-death, but I do urge everyone to remember that many of the rules that facilitated that perma-death were introduced at this event. Sure, the corpe-bashing didn't help any, but don't blame the high perma-death rate on the evil PC's. They're EVIL, after all.
There were times when I was frustrated at the situation, but all of that was in-character. There were times when it seemed like we were in a helpless situation, but as a player I kinda like that. It makes the danger of the situation very real. I can remember saying "When this battle is joined, I will walk off the field in victory or I will not walk off" and really feeling it. You guys did a great job of making us take you seriously.
Oh, and by the way, if you wanted to incorporate something to get under our skin, you did it. Flargging Frostfell...
- Kudos to the GM staff. Yes, it was an experiment; and yes, some people are dissatisfied; but I think the reviews of this event would be drastically different with just one change. As Brad stated, he didn't attack on Saturday night because Pentag would have preferred a tactical withdrawl and he didn't want to take the chance of wiping out the town. Donovan was against the PC's launching an attack against a superior force in a fortified position when the PC's had something that Pentag needed. All the situation would have needed was something to make one of the two sides move. Whether the battle happened at the Inn or at the fortress and regardless of the outcome, if there had been an epic conflict on Saturday night I think people would be ecstatic about the entire event.
- Kudos to the PC's. I saw some great roleplaying all the way around. I also like the way people rallied to the defense of the Inn. Right before gamebreak morale was at a real low, but afterward people were ready to fight or die with a smile on their face. I think a huge part of the letdown was having that go to waste. Hours of waiting with "Incoming!" heard every half hour or so only to learn at the end that the other side was sleeping really took a lot out of people. What had been a valiant vidgil suddenly felt like a waste of time. Hopefully that will wear off in time and the good parts of the event will remain.
- About PK. I think that its a necessity of the game. Not being able to kill off other PC's would make the whole world feel fake and restricted. Death happens. Characters die. Doing the things that make it so people don't die (like keeping watch all night) may be tiring, but it really reinforces the world and the feeling of being in-character. I think PC to PC relations would be entirely different if every character knew they could mouth off without consequence. Characters are like books; they have a beginning, a middle, and an end. All you can hope for is a good story.
- Regardless of what actually was the case, the appearance was that we were severely outmatched. We lost several of our better warriors in the fight against ED and blew through the entirety of our Alchemical reserves. Most PC's don't have hero points laying around, and the ones that do are usually hoping to survive the event without using them. When compared to a force (even a smaller force) designed for fighting and played by LARP vetrans we were at a significant disadvantage. As I said in our game-break planning session, our best seven people may be better than their best seven, but their next seven will absolutely trounce our next seven. When the PC's face off against a number of warriors with large shields who swing 2 crush and 3 poision in consecutive encounters, we tend to assume we're at a disadvantage. That effects our decision making process when it comes to attacking a fortified enemy position.
- We hoped that Pentag would attack because we had something he needed. He had proved to us earlier that very day he was willing to attack to get it, and we thought that we needed the additional advantage of defense. Also, don't get too down on the GM's for "taking over our defenses". We had a large part and final say in every decision that was made. If we listened to them, it was because they had good ideas. As for Donovan's mindset, he made decisions as if the survival of Haven was at stake (which it was) and paid no heed to the PC-boring factor of waiting for an attack. There was no in-game reason to justify an attack just then, only the frustration of the players themselves made it happen.
- After all of this, I am looking forward to next event with the same intensity that I always do.
- A suggestion to everyone: have faith. PC's, have faith in the GM's and NPC's to provide you with a good event, enforce the rules, and tell an interesting story. Have faith that others will play by the rules and play by them yourself. Don't presume players have personal vendettas against you or your character because of something that happened in-game, and don't hold any such vendetta. Expect the best from people and you'll often get it. Have faith in the game. You won't always win, you may never be the great hero, but you will be a part of an facinating game populated by incredible people.
A few comments:
- Kudos to the Pentag-people. I expected serious savagery, and I got it. There was lots and lots of perma-death, but I do urge everyone to remember that many of the rules that facilitated that perma-death were introduced at this event. Sure, the corpe-bashing didn't help any, but don't blame the high perma-death rate on the evil PC's. They're EVIL, after all.
There were times when I was frustrated at the situation, but all of that was in-character. There were times when it seemed like we were in a helpless situation, but as a player I kinda like that. It makes the danger of the situation very real. I can remember saying "When this battle is joined, I will walk off the field in victory or I will not walk off" and really feeling it. You guys did a great job of making us take you seriously.
Oh, and by the way, if you wanted to incorporate something to get under our skin, you did it. Flargging Frostfell...
- Kudos to the GM staff. Yes, it was an experiment; and yes, some people are dissatisfied; but I think the reviews of this event would be drastically different with just one change. As Brad stated, he didn't attack on Saturday night because Pentag would have preferred a tactical withdrawl and he didn't want to take the chance of wiping out the town. Donovan was against the PC's launching an attack against a superior force in a fortified position when the PC's had something that Pentag needed. All the situation would have needed was something to make one of the two sides move. Whether the battle happened at the Inn or at the fortress and regardless of the outcome, if there had been an epic conflict on Saturday night I think people would be ecstatic about the entire event.
- Kudos to the PC's. I saw some great roleplaying all the way around. I also like the way people rallied to the defense of the Inn. Right before gamebreak morale was at a real low, but afterward people were ready to fight or die with a smile on their face. I think a huge part of the letdown was having that go to waste. Hours of waiting with "Incoming!" heard every half hour or so only to learn at the end that the other side was sleeping really took a lot out of people. What had been a valiant vidgil suddenly felt like a waste of time. Hopefully that will wear off in time and the good parts of the event will remain.
- About PK. I think that its a necessity of the game. Not being able to kill off other PC's would make the whole world feel fake and restricted. Death happens. Characters die. Doing the things that make it so people don't die (like keeping watch all night) may be tiring, but it really reinforces the world and the feeling of being in-character. I think PC to PC relations would be entirely different if every character knew they could mouth off without consequence. Characters are like books; they have a beginning, a middle, and an end. All you can hope for is a good story.
- Regardless of what actually was the case, the appearance was that we were severely outmatched. We lost several of our better warriors in the fight against ED and blew through the entirety of our Alchemical reserves. Most PC's don't have hero points laying around, and the ones that do are usually hoping to survive the event without using them. When compared to a force (even a smaller force) designed for fighting and played by LARP vetrans we were at a significant disadvantage. As I said in our game-break planning session, our best seven people may be better than their best seven, but their next seven will absolutely trounce our next seven. When the PC's face off against a number of warriors with large shields who swing 2 crush and 3 poision in consecutive encounters, we tend to assume we're at a disadvantage. That effects our decision making process when it comes to attacking a fortified enemy position.
- We hoped that Pentag would attack because we had something he needed. He had proved to us earlier that very day he was willing to attack to get it, and we thought that we needed the additional advantage of defense. Also, don't get too down on the GM's for "taking over our defenses". We had a large part and final say in every decision that was made. If we listened to them, it was because they had good ideas. As for Donovan's mindset, he made decisions as if the survival of Haven was at stake (which it was) and paid no heed to the PC-boring factor of waiting for an attack. There was no in-game reason to justify an attack just then, only the frustration of the players themselves made it happen.
- After all of this, I am looking forward to next event with the same intensity that I always do.
- A suggestion to everyone: have faith. PC's, have faith in the GM's and NPC's to provide you with a good event, enforce the rules, and tell an interesting story. Have faith that others will play by the rules and play by them yourself. Don't presume players have personal vendettas against you or your character because of something that happened in-game, and don't hold any such vendetta. Expect the best from people and you'll often get it. Have faith in the game. You won't always win, you may never be the great hero, but you will be a part of an facinating game populated by incredible people.
One should rather die than be betrayed. There is no deceit in death. It delivers precisely what it has promised. Betrayal, though ... betrayal is the willful slaughter of hope.
Hello i know my oppinion here might not meen much but as a player it was hard for me to acualy kill the pc group in this event but i was given a role to play and i did that to the best of my ability from what info i was given about my lord and master pentag he played that role vary well and if he listened to his group i think more pc death would have happened
but i also had a great time aswell and all this event needed was some tweeks and i think it could have been a great one to add the the books
ok all i added my 2 cents here hope to see ya in the may run all ...oh and after losing a lot my my friends pc wise in this event i dont know where my pc is going to go and fit in now but should be fun and entertaining no matter where it turns out.
but i also had a great time aswell and all this event needed was some tweeks and i think it could have been a great one to add the the books
ok all i added my 2 cents here hope to see ya in the may run all ...oh and after losing a lot my my friends pc wise in this event i dont know where my pc is going to go and fit in now but should be fun and entertaining no matter where it turns out.
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Kale
- Site Admin
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I blame this all on Quetzel. He knocked out our motiviation by making us think there was no longer a way to get what we needed, and by scaring the bejeebuz out of us with strange mystic prowess that made even Narnian cry..well...maybe that wasn't what made him cry, I mean he IS a baby, but still... IMHO, the Q-man has replaced Ug on top of Pentag's hitlist.Donovan Thynedar wrote:We hoped that Pentag would attack because we had something he needed. He had proved to us earlier that very day he was willing to attack to get it, and we thought that we needed the additional advantage of defense.
Just to note, I was in the shower during the attack from Robin and her lackies noonish(?) on Saturday, and had I known she was out there, I would have run out in my skivies swords swinging.Kale wrote:Just thought I'd add that. I'm actually surprised that Robin made it through the event. I almost left her behind.
Anyway, I just wanted to post that I was very disappionted with this event. I'm not going to go into detail, but this event was bad. Arguably one of the worst events of any LARP I've ever been to. I understand that mistakes were made by all groups involved (Havenites, Pentag's Lackies, GMs), and things could have been handled much differently, but I believe that we should just treat this as Frostfeld 2.0: we will not speak of it again.
I think we should act like adults, put this bad experience behind us, and try to look forward to the next event(s).
One more thing: no more brutally violating the corpses of dead PCs. Please? I understand once in a while, but...come on. If we can accomplish this I promise on pain of beat-bag to cook BLTs every event henceforth.
Thank you for your time.
Ingram Folles - Scholar
"Integrity comes when character is tested; keep true and never be ashamed of doing what is right."
"You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself made the villain."
"I can't leave you alone for five minutes."
"Integrity comes when character is tested; keep true and never be ashamed of doing what is right."
"You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself made the villain."
"I can't leave you alone for five minutes."
Just for note, I retract my previous praise for anything the other PC group did, if I had any. As I've just read, they blantantly cheated in my eyes and this event just got much worse...
Every person playing an evil PC last event should be ashamed.
Every person playing an evil PC last event should be ashamed.
My posts in no way reflect that of anyone else nor are they in any way official.
Ashamed?
From what you've read? What did you read? How were the players cheating? And why such a change in thought? It's a bit funny you said "As I've just read"... and "In my eyes", but apparently your new proof came from others posts? So since I haven't picked up on the "Pentag's group cheating" part, I'm just curious what points you're referring to.dier_cire wrote:Just for note, I retract my previous praise for anything the other PC group did, if I had any. As I've just read, they blantantly cheated in my eyes and this event just got much worse...
Every person playing an evil PC last event should be ashamed.
Arthur Dreese - West Michigan
I just want to see tomorrow, day by day to just survive. / But this place is built to kill me. No one here gets out alive. ~Alice Cooper "Cold Machines"
"Beware the designer who does not design to play his own game." ~Justin Achilli, Vampire: the Masquerade Developer
I just want to see tomorrow, day by day to just survive. / But this place is built to kill me. No one here gets out alive. ~Alice Cooper "Cold Machines"
"Beware the designer who does not design to play his own game." ~Justin Achilli, Vampire: the Masquerade Developer
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DrakelenasElderich
- Town Member
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- Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:21 pm
- Location: Traveling
- Contact:
After reading every thing posted here all I have to say is "Wow....".
This was one of the BEST learning events EVER. So don't blame anyone for the outcome. It could have been changed by any one person at any given moment.
"Good" Pc's sat around the Inn and didn't run up as other were fighting for the lives of their freinds. You can't blame the "Evil" Pc's for deaths when you did little to prevent it. I mean come on, Atrum yells "Attack" and 3 of us go in, out of like 12? One of them being Elder Quetzel leading the charge. If not for Seth running back all of the Pc's strung up would have been dead.
As for the "miss treatment of the dead".....THEY WERE 100% EVIL!! If they were all hungry lions that attacked and ate you would you have felt better, or is it also not right for lions to eat a kill?
This was not one of the worst events ever. It was an event to open your eyes to how things are and could be. If you didn't like how it went, then change it. Next time don't wait for things to fall in your lap or things to go the way you wanted them too. You need to make it happen. How do you think we came up with the first Tablet and the Helm to destroy the weapon?
It was from a group of guys going "Man lets get something done", and we did. We did and found alot.
And to all the death...I could have been the other way around. I do recall when we came through the portal we had a prisoner who was concidered a Pc by the "Evil" group, and killed him. No questions asked, no second thoughts. So when the "Evil" Pc's did the same thing......
All in all I feel people are getting mad over petty things. After all, we were the Evil group here according to the "Evil" Pcs.
This was one of the BEST learning events EVER. So don't blame anyone for the outcome. It could have been changed by any one person at any given moment.
"Good" Pc's sat around the Inn and didn't run up as other were fighting for the lives of their freinds. You can't blame the "Evil" Pc's for deaths when you did little to prevent it. I mean come on, Atrum yells "Attack" and 3 of us go in, out of like 12? One of them being Elder Quetzel leading the charge. If not for Seth running back all of the Pc's strung up would have been dead.
As for the "miss treatment of the dead".....THEY WERE 100% EVIL!! If they were all hungry lions that attacked and ate you would you have felt better, or is it also not right for lions to eat a kill?
This was not one of the worst events ever. It was an event to open your eyes to how things are and could be. If you didn't like how it went, then change it. Next time don't wait for things to fall in your lap or things to go the way you wanted them too. You need to make it happen. How do you think we came up with the first Tablet and the Helm to destroy the weapon?
It was from a group of guys going "Man lets get something done", and we did. We did and found alot.
And to all the death...I could have been the other way around. I do recall when we came through the portal we had a prisoner who was concidered a Pc by the "Evil" group, and killed him. No questions asked, no second thoughts. So when the "Evil" Pc's did the same thing......
All in all I feel people are getting mad over petty things. After all, we were the Evil group here according to the "Evil" Pcs.
Drakelenas Elderich