hold ground and press

Crist0 · Post by **Crist0** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:29 pm

I was just wondering, if your holding ground and someone hits you in the back with press. Does that mean that you drop to 0 because your feet moved, or do you just move and hold ground is still in effect?

Crist0 · Post by **Crist0** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:27 am

ok that's what I thought, but I just wanted to make sure. Thanks

cole45 · Post by **cole45** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:12 am

In
addition, Fear, Sleep, Poison, Disease, Knockout, and Press effects do not affect the warrior;
instead they take 1 damage, taken from armor first.

cole45 · Post by **cole45** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:22 am

if that's what is intended I suggest

"In
addition , Fear, Sleep, Poison, Disease, Knockout, and Press effects delivered from the front do not affect the warrior;
instead they take 1 damage, taken from armor first."

Post by **GM_Chris** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:31 am

Darn darn you know I thought I posted too quick. I appologize I should have checked the rule because I thought that those things were immunities and did not list the front, but I was being too hasty

So no press would not affect you if you were pressed from the rear.

GM-Phil · Post by **GM-Phil** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:10 am

I would say by the wording of Hold Ground, if you were hit with Press from the back, you would have to move forward as normal. Although it does not say in Hold Ground that Press, Taunt, Fear and the others need to be from the front, it does state clearly after the section Travis posted that all attacks from the rear are taken normally.. So if you get hit in the back with a Press or a Taunt even, you are in trouble. And I believe that is the way it should be, seeing as Hold Ground is a Basic PAth skill.. Now in the Advanced rules that are planning on being playtested this year a High level Character with Advanced Hold Ground would be able to resist stuff like that from the back.. which makes sense to me for a Trained High level Character to be able to do.

cole45 · Post by **cole45** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:17 am

"This damage is taken off armor first even if the attack is "vorpal" (See pg.84). In
addition, Fear, Sleep, Poison, Disease, Knockout, and Press effects do not affect the warrior;
instead they take 1 damage, taken from armor first. The warrior also becomes immune to taunt. Attacks to the rear of the warrior affect the warrior normally."

Phil is correct.I clipped out of context.

Atrum Draconus · Post by **Atrum Draconus** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:19 am

If that is what is supposed to be gleaned from that description then it certainly needs to be rewritten and cleaned up. Because I read it as those things from any side and the warrior takes 1 damage. Other attacks (i.e. vorpal, crush, #poison, etc) affect the warrior normally from the rear and taunt does nothing at all.

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:33 am

The whole skill (when not clipped) is pretty clear. Any attack (damage or otherwise) to the rear acts normally. I could see adding the word 'Any' before attack or Travis' suggestion but I don't see how it's vague really to the point of requiring a rewrite. Only difficulty is someone understanding the definition of 'attack'.

I can see how someone looking for a hole can find one, but only through chunking out the rules into seperate sentences. As a whole, it's clear.

Atrum Draconus · Post by **Atrum Draconus** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:20 pm

I think any time you say something doesn't affect a character and then turn around and say that it does then it needs to be explicitly spelled out what you are saying. So yeah I would add the word any or all to the rear part or add the phrase only from the front to the in addition list. Maybe even both.

Post by **GM_Chris** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:25 pm

You know I am going to take a couple days and just think on this before I open my mouth up.

but I will say this

If attacks to the rear affect a person with hold ground, and press is one of those skills, then being pressed from the rear would cause the hold ground person to drop to 0 for breaking the move requirement.

If the person is immune to press and only take 1 damage then they take 1 damage.

GM-Phil · Post by **GM-Phil** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:51 pm

That is pretty much what we are saying Chris..

I think the problem is in the wording.. Also here is my other question. If you get Pressed from the rear and have Press yourself, can you Press back to counter it.

In the Skill it states you can use other "Resists".. but then lists specific Resists you can use, along woth Parry.. and using Press to resist Press is not written as a real Resist as far as I know. So it could be confusing.

The question is, if a character can Press back, or even resist Taunt.. would they be able to use them while Holding Ground.. if so then a re-wording of the skill would be appropiate.

So Chris.. do you think a character in Hold Ground can use Press or Resist Taunt (if they have them) if hit from the Rear to resist them?

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:50 pm

The short answer is yes, both are useable.

Since people seem to miss things here's the whole skill:

When Hold Ground is initiated the warrior gains 10 temporary life points, and all melee attacks delivered to the front side of the warrior that deal damage to the warrior's armor or life points are reduced to 1. This damage is taken off armor first even if the attack is "vorpal" (See pg.84). In addition, Fear, Sleep, Poison, Disease, Knockout, and Press effects do not affect the warrior; instead they take 1 damage, taken from armor first. The warrior also becomes immune to taunt. Attacks to the rear of the warrior affect the warrior normally. While Hold Ground is active, the warrior cannot use other charged or activated skills except for "resist" skills such as "Resist Magic" or "Resist Poison" and Parry. While Holding Ground warriors cannot move their feet. At the end of Hold Ground, the warrior's life point total is reduced to zero life points or remains at its current total if it is less than zero life points.

Note the words "such as". Alternatives would be "for example" or "for instance". This means that the list is not complete. If you want a complete list then ask, but you can't put it in the book since someone might have a hidden resist. In fact that's what this forum is for. There's at least one already out there which is the exact reason for the wording as I would have made it complete if I could have.

Also, every skill is meant to be read from top to bottom, in it's entireity. Doing different is just looking for holes. It's like looking at half a cooking recipe and saying it doesn't work. Taking things out of context is not a break.

Atrum Draconus · Post by **Atrum Draconus** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:35 pm

And I still say that if you read it you can easily imply that those first things are talking about from the front because it says so and the in addition things are a completely seperate issue that do not conform to the from the front only that is spelled out in the first part. Especially since it goes into what you are immune to afterward.

These things you take 1 from the front, then these things you take 1 from then these things you are immune to. Other stuff that happens from the rear is normal.

It would make sense to list things in order like that. A question would arise when you got to the end and the rear part is mentioned, but at that point it can seem contradictory, that a word was left out, or as a reminder that some stuff will affect you from the back.

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:41 pm

You can. I agree that it's not perfect. However, it's a pretty cut and dry question/answer too. One that is correctable with a few words, however, since I don't expect to see any rule edits/clarifications happening within the next year (I've gotten no replies on this subject), I doubt it'll happen. I will append it to the list though.

Now the real question is whether the immunity to taunt should be direction dependant. As read, it's direction dependant. I'm thinking it should be global.

(For Note: I added Travis' "to the front" after both taunt (well altered this to 'all taunts from the front' and after 'Press effects')