As some of you may know or not know, there have been discussions over long term issues with the FH rules. Currently, there is little mechanics to keep people coming over the long term. It falls completely on the rolyplaying and friend base which is unfair to it and detremental to the game.
Over the past few monthes, I've been mulling over ways to fix this and am still working on it, but have some changes that I believe to be safe and should at least help in fighting this issue. A couple are still very rough due to their size and the role they currently play. But without further ado:
#1) Retirement. After 12 levels a player may opt to retire a character and carry one of their first level disciplines with them. After 24, he/she may take a second level or a basic path skill. After 36, he/she may take a third level or a expert path skill. And after 48, he/she may take any single skill they currently have. Before we get to the 'OMG tha's way too powerful', we're talking every 4 years, or every 2 if you attend both FH and WH (of course I'm still of the opinion there should be a travel period). Ultimately, yes characters can get powerful over time, but they still lose alliegence, contacts, items, etc (items and etc will become more important later). Also, due to the way retiring would have to work they effectively gain 0 levels for an event. And ultimately, if someone wants to stop them, just wait till they retire and they are still a starting character. And even maxed out, defensively, a warrior is still just a warrior. Offensively, you can be nasty, but there are counters to the quick deaths that are even easier to achieve.
#2) Variable rewards. This system is something that most people will know quite well. It's the system where everything has a chance to drop the 'good stuff'. Currently, there is very little of this in our game and we all know what NPC will have the good stuff or in the case of the major items, that our interactions with the NPCs generate them. Now, if perchance, one random monster or NPC per event (or per set of interactions), when killed or handled properly, gave out an item or power (no upkeep) that would be tied to the character that finished it, it would give those not wanting to be directly involved in the major plots something, and encourage people to perhaps force the instance by patrolling and or visiting other towns, etc. This was something that happened in the early days of the game (and the reason I have extra life), but vanished. Ultimately, everything should drop something, and those somethings should be able to used in some form (ie vine monsters drop vines, which could be traded to the fishing village to make nets or something). I can't recall the last time I killed some monsters that had something valuable on them. Obviously, this comes from video games, but no one can deny their staying power or their addictive nature. Most of this is due to a variable reward system. (these items/skills would vanish if retiring)
#3) Alliegence and groups. The system is a good start but still needs work. It puts far too much pressure on players and doesn't give adequate notice of what is going on to be effective. I hate the thing to be honest. It requires too much diversifying and micro management. I mean, if you are a group, you are a group. If someone left your group, you'd know a heck of a lot sooner than four monthes later. How to fix it I'm not completely sure, but for starters working it out so people can survive more easily and in smaller groups is a good start. Requirements for commodities and armies should still be high, but survival shouldn't be. Even the ability to maintain one's equipment, whether it's magic, normal, or quality, can be problematic, which it shouldn't, assuming a higher point character is holding better items. As well, the entire military points thing just doesn't work right. Who would ever have a group of only warriors, and basic ones at that? And if I was hand picking troops (ie no muster), I'd never bring in just warriors and nine basic warriors in no way equals one master. Plus, none of them have disiplines...
#4) Slow down leveling. Currently, it's 3 events and you are done with the major portion of your character. Doubling this will not make the game more interesting in the long term but will allow for those doing the retirement path to be more vunerable for a longer period of time, which is a good thing. This would only affect the number of points per level early on and spreading some of them towards level 20.
#5) Well defined NPC groups. While the Pentag event was somewhat of a failure, looking back, having an enemy group you know is organized and has members that complement each other and uses tactics really makes battles a lot more fun. The last few events have been pretty doledrum when it comes to combat. The monsters do one thing over and over again, and the only variables are frequency and hitpoints, and damage. Mix in some extra skills and use the basic strategies that we use against you. Heck, besides a die roll bad luck incident, when has an NPC group ever stolen or hampered a trade route?
Obviously, this is mostly geared towards the combat aspect, but so is the book. Many aspects can also benefit or be used politcally (ie a politician with the chieftan bonus...), or instead of an item, they are given a perm +2 alliegence, etc.
At any rate, Bring on the Flaming!
Ideas for improving long term interest...
Moderator: Admin
Ideas for improving long term interest...
My posts in no way reflect that of anyone else nor are they in any way official.
Eric,
Let me start by saying something that is totally shocking….I agree with you 100% that we need to find ways to make the game more interesting in the long term besides the political system and role-playing. This is something we as GMs have been talking about quite a bit. Let me comment on each of your points and discuss what I believe to be their merits and flaws.
#1) Retirement. All in all, not a bad idea. It really isn’t too powerful of a bonus. The only problem I have is that it allows a player to use one character to build another with no risk to the new character. Along these lines, how about ‘Re-education’? A character could choose to drop to level zero but retain a skill based on the level at which they decided to go through re-education. In essence, they are retiring their mechanical character without retiring the persona or role-playing aspect of the character. We could put some sort of restriction on the number of times you can “re-educate” a character so it doesn’t get out of hand (Maybe once per level break).
#2) Variable rewards. I agree with you here as well. This is something we have struggled with for quite some time. It seems simple to just always provide monsters with treasure to hand out but there are a few issues. First, because we are a ‘barter’ based economy and not a ‘coin’ based economy, the rewards are hard to graduate. It’s either a full food resource or nothing. We have no half or quarter step. The other problem is simple logistics. Remembering to take treasure with you is a lot harder than you would imagine. There are so many things going on at once when you are NPCing that often you are running just to catch up and memorizing a plot as you go. We just need to work out a system for getting the physical tags to each NPC every time. If anyone has ideas, let us know.
#3) Alliegence and groups. I’m not going to comment too much on this because it is its own topic. We are working on a “Unified” support point system that could potentially address most of the issues you brought up.
#4) Slow down leveling. I agree here but I am in the minority amongst the GMs. My initial thought was to move the soft cap from level 20 to level 40 and spread out those points. The problem is that it doesn’t really address the core issue, it just delays it. It really just makes it harder for the newbies to get involved.
#5) Well defined NPC groups. Role-playing wise, we have always had well defined groups. Fighting wise, we were doing this quite well last season. The thing this season is that we got a slew of new NPCs that we are eternally grateful for but who are new players. It will take time for them to get acclimated to the FH style of NPCing and organizing. In fact, I bet you will see a big improvement in this by the end of the year.
Let me start by saying something that is totally shocking….I agree with you 100% that we need to find ways to make the game more interesting in the long term besides the political system and role-playing. This is something we as GMs have been talking about quite a bit. Let me comment on each of your points and discuss what I believe to be their merits and flaws.
#1) Retirement. All in all, not a bad idea. It really isn’t too powerful of a bonus. The only problem I have is that it allows a player to use one character to build another with no risk to the new character. Along these lines, how about ‘Re-education’? A character could choose to drop to level zero but retain a skill based on the level at which they decided to go through re-education. In essence, they are retiring their mechanical character without retiring the persona or role-playing aspect of the character. We could put some sort of restriction on the number of times you can “re-educate” a character so it doesn’t get out of hand (Maybe once per level break).
#2) Variable rewards. I agree with you here as well. This is something we have struggled with for quite some time. It seems simple to just always provide monsters with treasure to hand out but there are a few issues. First, because we are a ‘barter’ based economy and not a ‘coin’ based economy, the rewards are hard to graduate. It’s either a full food resource or nothing. We have no half or quarter step. The other problem is simple logistics. Remembering to take treasure with you is a lot harder than you would imagine. There are so many things going on at once when you are NPCing that often you are running just to catch up and memorizing a plot as you go. We just need to work out a system for getting the physical tags to each NPC every time. If anyone has ideas, let us know.
#3) Alliegence and groups. I’m not going to comment too much on this because it is its own topic. We are working on a “Unified” support point system that could potentially address most of the issues you brought up.
You are not looking at the whole military point system. Military points do not just represent warriors. They are a measure of the total effectiveness of your forces. This could be one well trained group of warriors or a ton of peon empaths. You are just looking at the mustering action and basing the whole military point system off of that. The reason you can only muster warriors is to make it easy for them to be played and to drive home the fact that it is the LEAST effective way to use your military points. Military points are meant to be used behind the scenes or “Off-stage”. When you bring your military points “On-stage” and need them to be physically represented, you are using them in a way they were not intended for so you sacrifice power for ease of play.As well, the entire military points thing just doesn't work right. Who would ever have a group of only warriors, and basic ones at that? And if I was hand picking troops (ie no muster), I'd never bring in just warriors and nine basic warriors in no way equals one master. Plus, none of them have disiplines.
#4) Slow down leveling. I agree here but I am in the minority amongst the GMs. My initial thought was to move the soft cap from level 20 to level 40 and spread out those points. The problem is that it doesn’t really address the core issue, it just delays it. It really just makes it harder for the newbies to get involved.
#5) Well defined NPC groups. Role-playing wise, we have always had well defined groups. Fighting wise, we were doing this quite well last season. The thing this season is that we got a slew of new NPCs that we are eternally grateful for but who are new players. It will take time for them to get acclimated to the FH style of NPCing and organizing. In fact, I bet you will see a big improvement in this by the end of the year.
Um…Almost every event for the last three seasons. Your fellow players are just good at covering it up or not spreading around the info.Heck, besides a die roll bad luck incident, when has an NPC group ever stolen or hampered a trade route?
Wayne O
The Game Master Lite
Frag the weak, Hurdle the dead!
The Game Master Lite
Frag the weak, Hurdle the dead!
I'll comment more later, as my internet is limited due to storms, but on the retirement issue, the re-education route would be fine too. The only reason I went with full retirement was to force the loss of contacts and having to re-establish themselves as part of a group which would be annoying after a time. One extra hinderance to make it semi less tempting. But either way, the ability to continually grow with times of weakness is the end result, which is what I thought would be cool. As for the cap, I think it caps itself on it's own as getting many skills requires so many re-educations or retirements that the time becomes excessive.
As for the trade routes, I never noticed. Unless, it's like the mine with the portal deal. I could believe that was driven but seemed such a dead end as far as who sabotaged it. Maybe they were just that good. *shrug*
Forgetting things is ok, and as for either full food or none, I'd think if you start expanding the items monsters give then finding ways to combine said items via smithing, time, arcane and/or alchemy, you'll find ways to have x number of those items becoming resources. Some items may have higher value in certain villages too. Adds one more layer, but if you have 100 monsters, you at max 100 items (presumably far, far less), and then even less combines and once it's done, it's done. Players may not be able to use vines, but they can barter for food, cloth, or supplies perhaps. You could vary the numbers of what each village wants per event / season. This would definitely be helped via some databasing.
As for the trade routes, I never noticed. Unless, it's like the mine with the portal deal. I could believe that was driven but seemed such a dead end as far as who sabotaged it. Maybe they were just that good. *shrug*
Forgetting things is ok, and as for either full food or none, I'd think if you start expanding the items monsters give then finding ways to combine said items via smithing, time, arcane and/or alchemy, you'll find ways to have x number of those items becoming resources. Some items may have higher value in certain villages too. Adds one more layer, but if you have 100 monsters, you at max 100 items (presumably far, far less), and then even less combines and once it's done, it's done. Players may not be able to use vines, but they can barter for food, cloth, or supplies perhaps. You could vary the numbers of what each village wants per event / season. This would definitely be helped via some databasing.
My posts in no way reflect that of anyone else nor are they in any way official.
I'm not going to respond much here because I pretty much agree with everything that Wayne just said. I think the changes that we have been discussing internally will help the political system concerns immensely, but that'll be down the road a bit (ie offseason) so I won't go over that much now.
The short of it is I like almost everything you've written but I am one of those GM's that Wayne alluded to who is against the leveling retooling for two simple reasons. First, one of the strengths of the game (I think) is that new players feel very useful right away, and second, I don't want to get rid of that simply to delay the real problem.
It's funny you brought up the video game analogy actually. When I was thinking of character advancement tweaks, I immediately turned to video games for help. What's appealing about video games is a sense of accomplishment brought forth by rewards of some kind.
I have other thoughts on game improvements but they are not really related to the topic at hand so I will save them for another time.
The short of it is I like almost everything you've written but I am one of those GM's that Wayne alluded to who is against the leveling retooling for two simple reasons. First, one of the strengths of the game (I think) is that new players feel very useful right away, and second, I don't want to get rid of that simply to delay the real problem.
It's funny you brought up the video game analogy actually. When I was thinking of character advancement tweaks, I immediately turned to video games for help. What's appealing about video games is a sense of accomplishment brought forth by rewards of some kind.
I have other thoughts on game improvements but they are not really related to the topic at hand so I will save them for another time.
Well, there is a lot to say here, but I'll try to make it brief...remember, this is just one PCs opinion, and I make it know because I do love the game and it'd like to see it get better...
#1) Retirement...while the idea of leveling like that is tempting...yeah...I doubt many single characters would last long enough to reap the full benefits of this decision...it might work in CARPS, but not here...especially if you instill more PVP standards (see below of further comment on PVP). Four years might be easy for people who play multiple characters, but for one PC to exceed four years without any perma-death woes...rare. I know it's happened before for several people, but it's not something that everyone can achieve as easily. $h!T just happens sometimes.
#2) Rewards...I do like this idea, however, it might create a whole new in-game power struggle for "who gets the shiny thing", and that might boil over into out-of-game problems (remember passwall?)...not saying it will...but it might. I do like it, however.
#3) Allegiance and groups...I totally agree. Since the whole basis for this world is "there are very few people left, and those that are left must band together to survive in what groups they can", I feel that this balances things considerably so. As for military points, I side with Wayne. There is more to it than meets the eye. I know that, and I am not even involved in any of that. It's an awesome idea though.
#4) Slowing down leveling...now here is where I disagree entirely. One of the things that attracted me and several other newer players was the fact that by your 4th event, you're about as equally powerful as the next guy...within reason, of course. You don't have to feel small for long, and you can survive better in the long run by leveling up faster. Honestly, how many characters die their first and second event? Enough, right? Try talking to those newer players afterward. Now, imagine that doubling because of slower character leveling....not fun, and frankly, frustrating. That's just our opinion though.
#5) PVP...here is where I disagree the most. Though, I am glad to see that the Pentag event is considered an example of what not to do in the future. Anytime you have PVP, there's going to be problems, but the trick is learning from what went wrong before and avoiding those mistakes in the future. I know some of you players are saying "well, if I wanted to play PVP, I'd stay home and play WOW!" but I'm not going to bother discussing that...if you don't want to play PVP, then that's your choice entirely. I don't want another fiasco like the Pentag event either (excuse me for saying that it was), I think that would ruin the game for many, but I am curious and excited to see what new changes have been occuring...although, part of me does dread it, WayneO, I love ya and I trust ya. lol
#1) Retirement...while the idea of leveling like that is tempting...yeah...I doubt many single characters would last long enough to reap the full benefits of this decision...it might work in CARPS, but not here...especially if you instill more PVP standards (see below of further comment on PVP). Four years might be easy for people who play multiple characters, but for one PC to exceed four years without any perma-death woes...rare. I know it's happened before for several people, but it's not something that everyone can achieve as easily. $h!T just happens sometimes.
#2) Rewards...I do like this idea, however, it might create a whole new in-game power struggle for "who gets the shiny thing", and that might boil over into out-of-game problems (remember passwall?)...not saying it will...but it might. I do like it, however.
#3) Allegiance and groups...I totally agree. Since the whole basis for this world is "there are very few people left, and those that are left must band together to survive in what groups they can", I feel that this balances things considerably so. As for military points, I side with Wayne. There is more to it than meets the eye. I know that, and I am not even involved in any of that. It's an awesome idea though.
#4) Slowing down leveling...now here is where I disagree entirely. One of the things that attracted me and several other newer players was the fact that by your 4th event, you're about as equally powerful as the next guy...within reason, of course. You don't have to feel small for long, and you can survive better in the long run by leveling up faster. Honestly, how many characters die their first and second event? Enough, right? Try talking to those newer players afterward. Now, imagine that doubling because of slower character leveling....not fun, and frankly, frustrating. That's just our opinion though.
#5) PVP...here is where I disagree the most. Though, I am glad to see that the Pentag event is considered an example of what not to do in the future. Anytime you have PVP, there's going to be problems, but the trick is learning from what went wrong before and avoiding those mistakes in the future. I know some of you players are saying "well, if I wanted to play PVP, I'd stay home and play WOW!" but I'm not going to bother discussing that...if you don't want to play PVP, then that's your choice entirely. I don't want another fiasco like the Pentag event either (excuse me for saying that it was), I think that would ruin the game for many, but I am curious and excited to see what new changes have been occuring...although, part of me does dread it, WayneO, I love ya and I trust ya. lol
Keep the Balance. Be the Voice for the Dead. Whenever a spirit cries out in anguish, be there to right the wrong, so that they may rest in peace.
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Donovan Thynedar
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Quick comments:
1. Retirement - I say we just cut the small talk and call it Ascention, Reid. Then you and I can raid NPC camp looking for the Naughty Sorceress. It will likely be Mike in a dress, but I'm willing to gamble.
Seriously, though, it's not a bad idea. Carryover skills would give things a new flavor.
2. Variable Rewards - I like this as well. Let's do it. Please?
3. Allegience and groups - Chris and I were talking about this issue after last event, and Phil and I have been working on a few ideas for the off season as well. I'll give the GM's an overview when it's ready.
4. Slow down leveling - Gotta go with the group on this one. One of FH's most attractive features is its ability to take someone from newbie to first rank character in only a year. Part of the reason I never joined Kanar or some of those other LARPS is because I didn't feel like being a peon for a decade or so.
5. NPC groups - My major complaint with NPC groups is that we can never find the bastards. Six scouts on patrol can't find the several hundered ga'vin that have made camp close enough to raid the town every few hours? It makes it so we always have to wait for them to come to us, which, despite the inherent benefits of defense, always seems to be on their terms. Just once I'd like to track a raiding party back to its camp, wait for them to fall asleep, and jump them for a change.
As for the Pentag event, I stand by my observation at the time. If the attack had come Saturday night, we'd all be raving about the event. The GM's were in a rough spot and chose not to usurp control. I may have done differently, but its definately a learning experience for everyone.
Oh, and while I'm thinking about it, it would be cool if everything didn't fight with two weapons, swing for two, and engage with no concern for anything except doing damage. I know that not EVERY creature actually fights that way, but it sure feels like it after a while.
1. Retirement - I say we just cut the small talk and call it Ascention, Reid. Then you and I can raid NPC camp looking for the Naughty Sorceress. It will likely be Mike in a dress, but I'm willing to gamble.
Seriously, though, it's not a bad idea. Carryover skills would give things a new flavor.
2. Variable Rewards - I like this as well. Let's do it. Please?
3. Allegience and groups - Chris and I were talking about this issue after last event, and Phil and I have been working on a few ideas for the off season as well. I'll give the GM's an overview when it's ready.
4. Slow down leveling - Gotta go with the group on this one. One of FH's most attractive features is its ability to take someone from newbie to first rank character in only a year. Part of the reason I never joined Kanar or some of those other LARPS is because I didn't feel like being a peon for a decade or so.
5. NPC groups - My major complaint with NPC groups is that we can never find the bastards. Six scouts on patrol can't find the several hundered ga'vin that have made camp close enough to raid the town every few hours? It makes it so we always have to wait for them to come to us, which, despite the inherent benefits of defense, always seems to be on their terms. Just once I'd like to track a raiding party back to its camp, wait for them to fall asleep, and jump them for a change.
As for the Pentag event, I stand by my observation at the time. If the attack had come Saturday night, we'd all be raving about the event. The GM's were in a rough spot and chose not to usurp control. I may have done differently, but its definately a learning experience for everyone.
Oh, and while I'm thinking about it, it would be cool if everything didn't fight with two weapons, swing for two, and engage with no concern for anything except doing damage. I know that not EVERY creature actually fights that way, but it sure feels like it after a while.
One should rather die than be betrayed. There is no deceit in death. It delivers precisely what it has promised. Betrayal, though ... betrayal is the willful slaughter of hope.
Not everything you encounter fights with two weapons, swings for two, and engages with no concern for anything except doing damage. Once in a great while, the creatures swing for 10!
Funny I hear that complaint a lot. We really do have a lot of things that swing 1, but I'm willing to bet that if everythng was like that, people would complain about how boring the event was.
And we bring in a lot of things that have no intention of doing damage, could in fact help the players immensely, have in fact nothing on their minds but the well being of the people of Haven. You guys just kill them before you figure that out
As for the six scouts thing, there is certainly opportunities for preemptiveness. It's all in how you come and phrase your requests I think. You have to remember we are really busy and our brains are not always on your wave length, so if you come to us and say we have six scouts and would like to find evidence of the giant Ga'Vin encampments that have been tearing up the area, we should say, take x amount of time and we'll get back to you.
If, however, you say we are looking for Joe Scmoe who left Haven four hours ago and no one saw what direction he traveled but since he was an elf we should be able to find the lighter footprints somewhere because we have six scouts, I may (and did) laugh at you.
Definitely, though, keep trying to take initiative and doing things ahead of time. We will accomodate if we can.
Funny I hear that complaint a lot. We really do have a lot of things that swing 1, but I'm willing to bet that if everythng was like that, people would complain about how boring the event was.
And we bring in a lot of things that have no intention of doing damage, could in fact help the players immensely, have in fact nothing on their minds but the well being of the people of Haven. You guys just kill them before you figure that out
As for the six scouts thing, there is certainly opportunities for preemptiveness. It's all in how you come and phrase your requests I think. You have to remember we are really busy and our brains are not always on your wave length, so if you come to us and say we have six scouts and would like to find evidence of the giant Ga'Vin encampments that have been tearing up the area, we should say, take x amount of time and we'll get back to you.
If, however, you say we are looking for Joe Scmoe who left Haven four hours ago and no one saw what direction he traveled but since he was an elf we should be able to find the lighter footprints somewhere because we have six scouts, I may (and did) laugh at you.
Definitely, though, keep trying to take initiative and doing things ahead of time. We will accomodate if we can.
To address the leveling issue. What I'm suggesting is that you don't go from peon to master in one event, but two. Make use of your expert level skills. This is really for two reasons. First, it does slow things down but also, secondly, it forces people to actually read and understand those skills. I don't know how many times I've had to explain mid level skills to other players. This is quite often due to people skimming them since they get master skills at the same time. As for discipplines, I'm thinking you get levels 2 and 3, then wait an event for 4. So ultimately, I guess I only was thinking of adding 2 events to maxed out. So instead of: peon -> master path or full discipline -> maxed, it would be: peon -> expert or level 2 and 3 -> master or (expert and level 2 and 3) or full discipline -> (master and level 2 and 3) or (full and expert) -> maxed out.
Taki - yeah, you caught me. I pulled it straight from KoL but it is a really nice concept and got me back into the game. Heck, the variable rewards is also straight from there, as Jick mentions it as one of the things he remembered from school when making the game.
Dia - As far as Pvp, I wasn't refering to that at all. What I was refering to was the fact that we fought an advesary that was equal to us in most respects in group design. Made for much tougher battles and we got beaten badly as our tactics sucked. And your point on the 'I get the shiny thing' is exactly what I'd like to encourage. I don't even fight things half the time since there is no real reason to anymore. And the four years is only for the top skills (you can retire earlier if you so choose), which we have at least half a dozen of us that are at or beyond that.
As for military points, I wasn't refering to only mustering. Mustering is ok since the numbers of guys is enough to overwhelm (though even 100 1 dam, 5 hp monsters would probably lose to the town due to defensive matrix, assuming we can funnel them). Though, I'd still like to be able to muster less but have them tougher. seeing as you can do it without one. However, the bring troops in that I represent (no muster) is fairly useless. A level 1 can bring in 1 master warrior at a cost of almost all their military points and he doesn't even get a discipline and he wears light armor. Why would a master warrior with no discipline wear light armor? How does the cost of one master equal that of nine peons?
Taki - yeah, you caught me.
I pulled it straight from KoL but it is a really nice concept and got me back into the game. Heck, the variable rewards is also straight from there, as Jick mentions it as one of the things he remembered from school when making the game.Dia - As far as Pvp, I wasn't refering to that at all. What I was refering to was the fact that we fought an advesary that was equal to us in most respects in group design. Made for much tougher battles and we got beaten badly as our tactics sucked. And your point on the 'I get the shiny thing' is exactly what I'd like to encourage. I don't even fight things half the time since there is no real reason to anymore. And the four years is only for the top skills (you can retire earlier if you so choose), which we have at least half a dozen of us that are at or beyond that.
As for military points, I wasn't refering to only mustering. Mustering is ok since the numbers of guys is enough to overwhelm (though even 100 1 dam, 5 hp monsters would probably lose to the town due to defensive matrix, assuming we can funnel them). Though, I'd still like to be able to muster less but have them tougher. seeing as you can do it without one. However, the bring troops in that I represent (no muster) is fairly useless. A level 1 can bring in 1 master warrior at a cost of almost all their military points and he doesn't even get a discipline and he wears light armor. Why would a master warrior with no discipline wear light armor? How does the cost of one master equal that of nine peons?
My posts in no way reflect that of anyone else nor are they in any way official.
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Kalphoenix
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- Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:45 pm
I started a whole post yesterday, but I'm just going for a couple things at the moment or I will be here for hours and miss out on dinner/lunch. Food is a mighty motivator for my brevity. And, wonder of all wonders, I agree that longterm leveling lacks something. Considering we're probably on opposite sides of the playerbase (I favor the roleplaying aspect), that's pretty amazing. I guess my suggestions are usually less than conservative, because I like more fantasy in my fantasy games. Again, these are just my opinions and I'm sorry if I sound harsh about them, I'm getting over some weather-related sinus issues.
I am 100% AGAINST slowing down leveling unless some worthy form of alternate advancement exists once you hit cap is implemented (I personally would have to give it some thought). The system feels really artificial already and extending the cap takes away that "numbers are more important than character and roleplaying" feel that is great about FH. I have a few ideas I guess that could implement things that both the number people and the roleplayers would like, but I'd need to spend some extensive time mapping it out. I just hate the carrot and treadmill system, especially when the carrot at the "end" isn't very good. Now, the roleplaying means more to me than the leveling, but both have importance.
The only real reason I feel that the leveling system exists is so that new players can learn the rules without being overwhelmed, which is a good reason, but it REALLY limits role-playing backgrounds to a few stereotypes. While this is somewhat good since it eliminates the "I've killed 90 orcs before breakfast" route that some people take when making a character, it also gives most PCs no wariness about a new character ("He can't actually hurt/help me, he's just a level zero.") or my reasons listed below. If a character is a level zero, there is no real good reason for them to have survived long enough to make it to FH. You're looking at a few common backgrounds and that's it. Here's a few:
I was a farmer.
I was a kid.
I'm really old and forgot.
I have amnesia.
Something happened to my skills during the cataclysm.
Those are pretty much your limit for reasoning what happened to your abilities. It's hard to say you were a bodyguard or a mercenary when you can be taken out in one or two hits and lack any skills.
Magic items: A lot of people are probably going to smack me down on this one, but I think we should cap the number of magic items a person can actually utilize on their person at one time. The problem exists now where most magic items are funneled to the top, so there is a hesitation to put more into the game. If it would be a possibility that someone could only use a few items at one time (and have to store or give away the others), it would go a long way towards spreading the wealth. It could be plausible that the magic items emit some kind of energy that make them interfere with each other (The same reason why you can't wear a ring on every finger in most MMOs and paper games). This would also make the production of commodities more valuable, since they wouldn't have that kind of restriction. If the GMs wanted to make exceptions for some sorts of "set" or artifact items, that could be done too.
That's it for now.
I am 100% AGAINST slowing down leveling unless some worthy form of alternate advancement exists once you hit cap is implemented (I personally would have to give it some thought). The system feels really artificial already and extending the cap takes away that "numbers are more important than character and roleplaying" feel that is great about FH. I have a few ideas I guess that could implement things that both the number people and the roleplayers would like, but I'd need to spend some extensive time mapping it out. I just hate the carrot and treadmill system, especially when the carrot at the "end" isn't very good. Now, the roleplaying means more to me than the leveling, but both have importance.
The only real reason I feel that the leveling system exists is so that new players can learn the rules without being overwhelmed, which is a good reason, but it REALLY limits role-playing backgrounds to a few stereotypes. While this is somewhat good since it eliminates the "I've killed 90 orcs before breakfast" route that some people take when making a character, it also gives most PCs no wariness about a new character ("He can't actually hurt/help me, he's just a level zero.") or my reasons listed below. If a character is a level zero, there is no real good reason for them to have survived long enough to make it to FH. You're looking at a few common backgrounds and that's it. Here's a few:
I was a farmer.
I was a kid.
I'm really old and forgot.
I have amnesia.
Something happened to my skills during the cataclysm.
Those are pretty much your limit for reasoning what happened to your abilities. It's hard to say you were a bodyguard or a mercenary when you can be taken out in one or two hits and lack any skills.
Magic items: A lot of people are probably going to smack me down on this one, but I think we should cap the number of magic items a person can actually utilize on their person at one time. The problem exists now where most magic items are funneled to the top, so there is a hesitation to put more into the game. If it would be a possibility that someone could only use a few items at one time (and have to store or give away the others), it would go a long way towards spreading the wealth. It could be plausible that the magic items emit some kind of energy that make them interfere with each other (The same reason why you can't wear a ring on every finger in most MMOs and paper games). This would also make the production of commodities more valuable, since they wouldn't have that kind of restriction. If the GMs wanted to make exceptions for some sorts of "set" or artifact items, that could be done too.
That's it for now.
Mike: For the majority of you, choosing to use a packet instead of a weapon is a hindrance because your aims suck.
Travis: Crap he is on to me.
Travis: Crap he is on to me.
Changes...
I find it funny how in one sentence a person can say "The thing I really like about Final Haven is that after 4 events, everyone is on the same level" and then in the next suggest "Players should continue to advance and get more powerful instead of stalling in mechanics after such a short time." If you want players "on even ground" with one another in a short ammount of time, then there is going to have to be a cap fairly quickly in the game.
It sounds like the KoL "retirement" idea could have benefits, though.. how a character would be RP'd going from uber-fighter to trainee in 2 months would be a challenge (unless we had a magical orb, or monks that "helped" with it or something?). I do like it though as a way of giving more, allowing players to RP something new while playing something familiar still. For me the balance would be "How do you rationalize it in the story?".
Variable Rewards are great... as long as they're not just for fighters! There's a lot of RP and actions that take place that aren't out in the battle field. Maybe add "drops" to solving riddles, or scout hints, or even just give one to an NPC who wanders in, chats with the characters and offers them "a reward" for their help? It might also encourage diplomacy and learning rather than attacking everyone and ignoring plots. (Then again, maybe if you mug everyone who comes into Haven, you might find that they carry some cool stuff too! )
Slowing leveling is fine by me. You're still advancing really fast (compared to D&D and most other games) and while it may only "delay the inevitable", it will take 2 years to plateau, and many players seem to start up new characters after 2 years anyways. *L*
There was some brainstorming about "Master Skills" or something, where after X-levels, characters can kind of grab from some other level of skills that are unavailable to lower-levels... or maybe a new "master path" that they can't unlearn... sort of a "the direction they will go in for the rest of their lives" sort of thing?
Would it be game-breaking of Hero Points refreshed at the beginning of each game?
• Characters would still gain Hero Points as usual, but they would refresh at the beginning of each game.
• Characters could still be awarded with non-renewing Hero Points that could be spent at any time too.
This way characters who are played longer can do more "heroic" things more often, and all characters can still be awarded with Hero Points that are still fairly rare (even a 50th level character only has 3 Hero Points they can use each game.)
(This option also might require the least amount of fussing with the rules too!)
It sounds like the KoL "retirement" idea could have benefits, though.. how a character would be RP'd going from uber-fighter to trainee in 2 months would be a challenge (unless we had a magical orb, or monks that "helped" with it or something?). I do like it though as a way of giving more, allowing players to RP something new while playing something familiar still. For me the balance would be "How do you rationalize it in the story?".
Variable Rewards are great... as long as they're not just for fighters! There's a lot of RP and actions that take place that aren't out in the battle field. Maybe add "drops" to solving riddles, or scout hints, or even just give one to an NPC who wanders in, chats with the characters and offers them "a reward" for their help? It might also encourage diplomacy and learning rather than attacking everyone and ignoring plots. (Then again, maybe if you mug everyone who comes into Haven, you might find that they carry some cool stuff too!
)Slowing leveling is fine by me. You're still advancing really fast (compared to D&D and most other games) and while it may only "delay the inevitable", it will take 2 years to plateau, and many players seem to start up new characters after 2 years anyways. *L*
There was some brainstorming about "Master Skills" or something, where after X-levels, characters can kind of grab from some other level of skills that are unavailable to lower-levels... or maybe a new "master path" that they can't unlearn... sort of a "the direction they will go in for the rest of their lives" sort of thing?
Would it be game-breaking of Hero Points refreshed at the beginning of each game?
• Characters would still gain Hero Points as usual, but they would refresh at the beginning of each game.
• Characters could still be awarded with non-renewing Hero Points that could be spent at any time too.
This way characters who are played longer can do more "heroic" things more often, and all characters can still be awarded with Hero Points that are still fairly rare (even a 50th level character only has 3 Hero Points they can use each game.)
(This option also might require the least amount of fussing with the rules too!)
Arthur Dreese - West Michigan
I just want to see tomorrow, day by day to just survive. / But this place is built to kill me. No one here gets out alive. ~Alice Cooper "Cold Machines"
"Beware the designer who does not design to play his own game." ~Justin Achilli, Vampire: the Masquerade Developer
I just want to see tomorrow, day by day to just survive. / But this place is built to kill me. No one here gets out alive. ~Alice Cooper "Cold Machines"
"Beware the designer who does not design to play his own game." ~Justin Achilli, Vampire: the Masquerade Developer
Rewards
If players are giving their magical items to several key people, that's their fault, not that of the GMs. If Bob goes out on a mission and gets a magical do-hickey, and he gives it to Prince George... it's either Bob's fault for giving it, or he has a complaint when it's taken from him and not given back.Kalphoenix wrote:Magic items: A lot of people are probably going to smack me down on this one, but I think we should cap the number of magic items a person can actually utilize on their person at one time. The problem exists now where most magic items are funneled to the top, so there is a hesitation to put more into the game.
But I don't think it even has to be "magical item drop", but rather "The character that did the final blow gains "X-power/ability", or "X-potion"... or even "X-magical item that is only enchanted for the rest of the event"... but who knows. Again, if you attach it to other things (puzzles, random and hand-picked NPCs, etc.) it might still work. The idea is to reward players for their involvment in "things".. whether it be fighting, solving puzzles, or just strong roleplay.
Arthur Dreese - West Michigan
I just want to see tomorrow, day by day to just survive. / But this place is built to kill me. No one here gets out alive. ~Alice Cooper "Cold Machines"
"Beware the designer who does not design to play his own game." ~Justin Achilli, Vampire: the Masquerade Developer
I just want to see tomorrow, day by day to just survive. / But this place is built to kill me. No one here gets out alive. ~Alice Cooper "Cold Machines"
"Beware the designer who does not design to play his own game." ~Justin Achilli, Vampire: the Masquerade Developer
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Samantha
- Town Member
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:41 am
- Location: NOT in Kansas anymore
- Contact:
Tee hee! Anyone who knows me even an ounce knows I don't understand half of this conversation but I'm relishing the thought of Taki barging in the door to rescue Mike in a dress (as though it would be the first time!) and Vince in his little Vince Rules Temple and Community Center (maybe in a dress, maybe not, he's got the legs for it).
Thanks for the giggle! I needed it!
Thanks for the giggle! I needed it!
"It ain't no mystery,
if it's politics or history.
The thing you gotta know is,
Everything is showbiz!"
if it's politics or history.
The thing you gotta know is,
Everything is showbiz!"