Orc boon

Tonia Glowski · Post by **Tonia Glowski** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 1:44 am

Okay... I'm gonna do it...

I'd like to call that the Orc boon of "Press" be unlimited. As it stands now, Orcs can only do it one extra time per combat with expenditure of a LP. Why not let them do it multiple times if they continue to expend LPs?

As it stands, it seems it is the only of the boons that seem arbitrarily limited.

Todd · Post by **Todd** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 8:45 am

It is unlimited, sort of. It is limited in the amount you can use it per target. Generally speaking, once you attempt to press a target, if they resist, you cannot move them. The Orc however gets a second chance for free. (technically they get the first chance for free, but I digress) You can always press another target. In a feild of ten people, you could press each of them 1 time for free. If any resist, you could then start spending life points.

That being said.. Thats how it works currently.

What do other people think? Would unlimited be too powerful? The only way to stop a charging Orc would be to 'Hold ground' making use of what has been called a useless skill by some. Very dangerous though.

I'm on the fence, but I'm leaning twords no. Convince me.

Tonia Glowski · Post by **Tonia Glowski** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 2:09 pm

Let me explain what I meant by limited versus unlimited:

Aviana's Glide: The Aviana can glide back and forth over a pit trap or other depression unlimited times, if need be. There is no limitation here on the number of times this may be performed per trap, per scene or per day.

Dwarf's Poison Resistance: The Dwarf may call a resistance to a poison-effect by expending 2 LPs. There is no limitation to how often the Dwarf can use this to their advantage per opponent, per scene or per day. The only limitation here is the number of LPs the respective Dwarf has.

Elf's Boom: The Elf can produce a 3 point Boom effect. There is no limitation here on the number of times this may be produced per opponent, per scene or per day.

Gavin's Re-generation: The Gavin will regenerate 1 LP per 15 minutes. There is no limitation here on the number of times this may be used to their advantage per injuries caused by a particular opponent, per scene or per day.

Gnome's Production: The Gnome enjoys a reduction in the time it takes to craft items. There is no limitation here on the number of times this may be used to their advantage per item, per person for whom the item is crafted for or per day.

Guthrie's Fear Immunity: The Guthrie is immune to all fear effects without any expenditure of LPs or otherwise. There is absolutely no limitation here.

Human's Allegiance Bonus: The Human enjoys a substantial allegiance bonus with no racial-specific instructions here on how the allegiance may be spent. There is no limitation here.

Tsunotaur's Extra Minute in Negatives: The Tsunotaur takes 2 minutes (as opposed to 1 minute) to bleed to death. There is no limitation here on the number of times this may be used to their advantage per scene, per injuries caused by a particular opponent or per day.

Valken'Vi's Soothsaying: The Valkyn'Vi gets 1 question every 15 minutes, like the Knowledge skill. There is no limitation here on the number of times this may be used per topic, per scene or per day.

Now to the Orc's boon:

Orc's Press: The Orc gets the use ONE extra press per person per scene. The Orc has the option of expending 1 LP for a second press. The Orc IS limited here to only one extra press, even though they may be willing to expend additional LPs to press again. While the boon will succeed in moving an "average" opponent, it will not succeed in moving another determined Orc or a Pike Man or Man-at-Arms or any NPC that Plot gives an extra press to. In these instances, the pressing will end up in a stalemate.

All I suggest is that like the Dwarven boon, Orcs can use their boon as often as they choose, with the only limitation here being the number of LPs the respective Orc has. Heck, I'm not even necessarily arguing that those with extra press whether Orc, Pike Man or Man-at-Arms don't all work the same. But I think it would be an interesting dynamic to combat to see how far each respective side is willing to go... even into unconsciousness if the cause is great enough. There is no logical reason or rationale that I can see (I'll admit I don't have Plot wisdom here) for why two Orcs couldn't shove each other back and forth until one of them ultimately toppled the other. There seems to be no compelling argument as to why the Orc boon is limited while none of the others are.

Which way are you leaning now, Todd?

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 3:00 pm

Looking at this, I've never seen an issue with the Orc boon since they get a free non life expenditure press per opponent per scene. That's a lot of presses for _free_. Up to the pc to use them. Only one that can compare in amount of times is elf, unless a avyiana jumps over a pit all weekend.

Here's another breakdown:

Aviana's Glide: have to have an active trap to be useful. This is fairly rare
Dwarf's Poison Resistance: Enemy has to swing poison or trap with poison has to go off. Rare except in GoL

Elf's Boom: Can be used in most combats. (already argueably the best boon)
Gavin's Re-generation: Have to be hurt for this to work. Healing is far faster. Not that useful.
Gnome's Production: Have to be building something, semi useful.
Guthrie's Fear Immunity: Have to be feared. Rare.
Human's Allegiance Bonus: Only inbetween events is it useful. Though it is nice to have.
Tsunotaur's Extra Minute in Negatives: Have to be dying. This is generally not the best place to be. Should be Rare.
Valken'Vi's Soothsaying: Have to have something to study and have to not go out adventuring. Nice but sage is better.
Orc's boon: Can be used many times per scene if needed. Doesn't usually do much since we are in a woodland setting.

Basically there is the rarely used, the semi useful and elf and human are the best. Orc falls into semi useful just due to the fact that it's a combat ability that costs nothing. Now being creative, press the warrior that's in front of the charging mage / archer, and you can interrupt a count for free, without hitting the person. Sounds pretty nice to me.

If it had to be changed, I'd go with orcs are not limited to one press per opponent, and can press as long as they have life to spend. (ie no "free" presses, but you can do it forever.) Granted I think this is a bit powerful.

Post by **WayneO42** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:04 pm

Think of it this way, an ORC Man-at-Arms can move ANYONE except another orc man-at-arms/pikeman. I think the Orc boon is fine. If we take off the cap then you get a situation where two orcs stand across from each other shouting:

"Press"
"Counter"
"Press"
"Counter"
"Press"
"Counter"
"Press"
"Counter"
"Press"
"Counter"
"Press"
"Counter"
"Press"
"Counter"
"Press"
"Counter"
"Press"
"Counter"
"Press"
"Counter"

Not very conducive to a fast paced, role-playing intensive game. It would be fine for table top but, IMHO, it slaughters the mood of a LARP.

Todd · Post by **Todd** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 6:15 pm

Actually I have no problem with the above situation, I worry about the unstopable jugernaught that cant be stopped if there is no man at arms around. In a field no biggy, in an inclosed area huge discrepency. Still on the fence though.

Tonia Glowski · Post by **Tonia Glowski** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 7:27 pm

Eric --

I'd have no problem with changing it so that no presses are "free" but that Orcs could press as many times as they choose as long as they have a LP to expend. I'm not looking to make them uber-powerful, I just find it odd that there is some sort of limitation.

Also Eric, while your breakdown about the "usefulness" of certain boons is interesting, I think you overlook something. Why don't you try breaking them down into: "Saves your ass from dieing," "incredibly useful in-game advantage" and "a single combat tactic that does not necessarily yield anything."

Here's my breakdown, if you will:

In the "Saves your ass from dieing" category, we have:
Aviana's Glide
Dwarf's Poison Resistance
Gavin's Re-generation
Tsunotaur's Extra Minute in Negatives
Guthrie's Fear Immunity

In the "Incredibly useful in-game advantage" category:
Gnome's Production
Human's Allegiance Bonus
Valken'Vi's Soothsaying

And finally, the "single combat tactic that does not necessarily yield anything" category:

Elf's Boom
Orc's Press

Arguably the Elf's Boom is THE most powerful boon of them all, at least offensively in combat. You still argue an orc shouldn't be able to push you more than a couple of times, especially if they have to expend a LP which the Elf does not?

Wayne --

If you think that most LARP combats (including Final Haven) aren't a bunch of offensive verbals and defensive calls, then we must be playing something much different. There are multiple examples of this everytime I've been to an event and I don't see it the least bit destructive to the mood, especially when roleplayed well -- and trust me, your scenario would be over in about 3 seconds. Unfortunately, as much as I'd like it, we can't physically grapple people and throw them to the ground... at least let us represent it!

Todd --

Hop the fence and come to the dark side... there are no unstoppable juggernauts... there are characters with a finite amount of LPs that they have to balance in using. If you don't think using multiple presses isn't going to make you a quick target for a lot of aggression, then we've definitely had entirely different LARPing experiences.

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:44 pm

Just for note, the gavin regen will never save you from dying. You'll be long dead before you regen that 1 life point.

Regen needs an overhaul anyway...

Todd · Post by **Todd** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:07 am

OK, let me start by saying.. "Saves your ass from dieing" category. Thats Funny!

Bafore I get going I'd like to ask, whats wrong with Re-gen? It cuts natural healing time down to a fraction. In many cases it reduces the effects of LP burning skills. Its much easier to burn through them when you know they'll be back after a breather. If you have reasons why it should be changed, or even an Idea of how to change it for the better, then please. By all means make them. But dont just leave open ended accusations hanging in the form of.. "needs an overhaul".

That being said, to the heart of the matter. In this case Orc's. I have one foot on your side of the fence Tonia, and am presently leaning WAY over. And heres the reason, I read the rule book. In order 1)Press is countered by spending life. 2)Anyone may Press one time at the cost of 1LP. 3)Orcs, and other Disciplines, get a 'free' Press. 4)Regularly, you may only Press a Target once. 5)You may resist as many as you like. 6)Hold ground resists Press.

I have to agree it looks less, and less, effective.
Scenario A; An Orc walks to an Inn doorway where a Gnome is standing guard. "Move, puny Nome!" The gnome of course refuses.
Orc; "Press" (for free)
Gnome; "Counter" (1LP)
Orc; "press" (1LP)
Gnome; "Counter" (1LP)
End result; Gnome -2LP, Orc -1LP, Orc stuck outside because he can only 'Press' once per Target.
Scenario B; Two more Orcs walk up and go "What problem? why you stopped by Nome?"
Orc 2; "Press" (for free)
Gnome; "Counter" (1LP)
Orc 2; "press" (1LP)
Gnome; "Counter" (1LP)
Orc 3 says "You weak! Me move runt!"
Orc 3; "Press" (for free)
Gnome; "Counter" (1LP)
Orc 3; "press" (1LP)
Gnome; "Counter" (1LP)
End result; Gnome -6LP, 3 Orcs outside. WHAT!?

I have two suggestions on how to fix this. 1) Orcs get no freebies but may burn LP's repeatedly, as mentioned. Or, 2) Orcs cannot be 'Pressed" I know it doesnt seem like much, if you arent first 'Pressed'. But it is quite nasty in the right setting.

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:19 am

yeah, so this has become slightly hijacked.

Regen is just way too slow to be of any use. Maybe if one was alone and spent some hp to use a skill and took no life damage. Normally, a healer will be around and what's faster 4 minutes for full heal or 15 for 1 hp? It needs to be much faster to be very useful.

Maybe something like half hitpoints in 10 minutes or 2 less minutes if already have regen.

As for the press thing, why not just say you can spnd your own press to resist. Thus the Gnome can't be in front after the first resist.

Peace420 · Post by **Peace420** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:30 am

Why can anyone press? Here's my suggestion, make the abillity limited by life pts but allow only the people that get press to press. Still allow people to resist with a life pt. With this change there is another skill that could be used in the Druid list for large animals and it fixes the situation where a gnome can hold off 3 orcs. Press ability could even be added as a guild skill.

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:47 am

I still don't like the idea of resist press as long as you have life. Just seems dumb to have a gnome be killed by an orc pushing him to the side.

Peace420 · Post by **Peace420** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:51 am

It's up to the gnome to decide when enough is enough, if he is willing to take himself to 0, which by the way won't kill you, so be it.

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:59 am

0 won't kill you but the 1 when he's unconscious is will. Still dumb rping wise. It's like me trying to hold off a (tame) grizzly bear from moving past me. I won't be knocked unconsicous, I'll just be pushed aside.

Peace420 · Post by **Peace420** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:47 am

Anyone that spends themselves unconscious has the same possibility, that's why I said it's up to the gnome.

This is a game, a game where we do things that people normally can't do. If you try and stop that grizzly bear you'll pass out from over exertion long before that bear will, given that it doesn't decide you would make a good lunch. But the point is that you can offer some resistance if you choose. To say that you cannot offer any resistance to someone trying to push you out of the way is just as dumb as a gnome keeping 3 orcs at bay. The problem is how do you say who could press who? You can't go by size because some man sized people or constructs could be as strong as large sized or even stronger in the case of golems or vampires. Without a strength score it's virtually impossible to say what would press what unless you go through everything and list what can press what which would add way too much confusion.