Research Suggestion

Ian_McAllister · Post by **Ian_McAllister** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:58 am

I have been talking to Matt and a few others and thought I would post this idea.. I have no idea what the current rules on researching are so if this is unnecessary just let me know.

From talking to a few people that have researched things I have heard that there is no real formula to researching ... mainly just a possible time it will take.. I was thinking of a system that would be hopefully easy on the Gm's and also let the players incest themselves more into research and perhaps be able to give a decent idea of how long it will take.

Simply put use Research Points, when something is put on the research table the Gm's could take a look at it and decide how many research points it will take to complete.

Characters with the research ability will have a base research pool equal to their level..(showing that the longer you have been around the better you know where to look for stuff) with additional research points coming from any applicable Discipline.

Level 1 Discipline = +0 research points
Level 2 Discipline = +10 research points
Level 3 Discipline = +20 research points
Level 4 Discipline = +40 research points (Heck you are a master after all)

And Possibly allowing multiple Disciplines to be used in researching.. for instance a Sage, Alchemist, Assassin has a Poisoned Dagger to research.. he could gain a bonus for Alchemist and Assassin in trying to research the poison .. but again that is just an idea..

Lastly a possible change to Sage.. allow Higher level sages to research more than 1 thing.. Let them research 1 additional thing per Master level as Primary Path.

Basic Sage: Can research 1 thing. +10 research points.
Advanced Sage: Can research 2 things. +20 research points.
Master Sage: Can research 3 things. +40 research points.

Additionaly if multiple sages all research the same thing, all the points stack... but a limit of say 3 sages per research item could be put as only so many people can effectively look for the same thing??

Overall example: A is a Level 20 Master Sage, Master Arcane, Level 2 Alchemist.. He wishes to research a new level 4 spell.. and a tome that was discovered in a tomb. His base pool of research points is 20 for his level + 40 for being master sage so 60 base research points.. he splits those between the two projects 20 to the spell and 40 to the tome.. he then gets an additional 40 towards the spell for being Master Arcane.. and no additional to the tome as no discipline he has applies. So he has 60 points going towards the spell which the GM's have determined will take 300 points.. and 40 towards the tome which will take 60.

Now the Gm's can decide to tell the players outright how many points, or just say something is a big project.. letting the player know it might not be a bad idea to get help in researching it. I am hoping this might help streamline research and open it up to more ideas as well.

I may have forgotten some things so please..
Comments, Critiques.. Bring em on.

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:55 am

For simplicity sake and such I'd remove the points equal to level and divide all the points by 10. Reason being that no path currently decerns between a 40th level character and a 8th level character, and now you'd be saying that one master is better than another (introducing level grind). This is not a route I think FH wants to go.

Beyond that, I don't see a big deal in it. Honestly, how npcs handle research is up to them, which is really what this concerns. Players just research something and have to wait until they achieve something. It's not like we'd have any idea how long it'd take anyway. I mean if I decide to build a particle accelerator, I have no idea how long it'll take.

Post by **Zydana** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:57 am

Ian_McAllister wrote: Additionaly if multiple sages all research the same thing, all the points stack... but a limit of say 3 sages per research item could be put as only so many people can effectively look for the same thing??

I was curious about this too as I'm sure that what I'm researching at the moment, others are too. However, I wouldn't assume that becuase two or more people are researching the same thing, doesn't mean they care to aid eachother or share results. Also, I'd question someone that had just gotten research and wanted to aid me on something I've been working on for a long time and felt I was close to finding the answer.

Onimaster · Post by **Onimaster** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:15 pm

As far as I was told researh is on the table for the off season.

Ian_McAllister · Post by **Ian_McAllister** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:23 pm

In response to Dier_cire: first off if the Gm's want to take out the level equal to points they could always just use a flat point system based off your Sage mastery level. Mainly I was just tossing this out there to see what the Gm's and players who do a lot of research thought about it.. As for knowing how long, it is still completely up to the Gm's to let the players know how long it will be.. Only they will know how many points something is, and they can tell the player or not... But I hope that this would help the players and Gm's work out things quicker and for the Researchers give them a fair chance of answering someones question of "How long is this gonna take to research"?

In response to Zydana: agreed that this could be a tricky spot, but how about on the research sheet you would have to say you are actively working together with another researcher to help them on a project.. if it is not stated then if two people are researching the same thing but not helping then the points would not stack and they would finish it seperately. As for someone just picking up research to help someone out, I do not see a problem with that, just think of them as an assistant who hunts down the research material for you..

Actually as I am typing this I just thought of this, for Dier-Cire's non-level points, I said use Sage levels as a base.. instead since not all researchers are Sages this might be better..

Research skill - 20 research points
Advanced Sage - +20 research points
Master Sage - +30 research points
Also using the Discipline research points stated in first post.

My original idea for level based points was so that someone with research could actually get better as they got more experienced, but I could see a lot of abuse for this in the future.. although I am not really worried about people "level grinding".. I mean everyone is trying to get as many levels as they can anyway.. not much else they can do but show up to every event or suck up to the Gm's ..hehe..

Onimaster · Post by **Onimaster** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:06 pm

Is there a reason for such large numbers of points?? Why does everything go by 20's?

I haven't read it all, but it seems unnecessarily hefty numbers. And probably, whatever formula is created will use the preexisting formulas for spells and alchemy as it's base costs.

Also, if there is a bonus from an associated discipline or a path I think that it shouldn't be a monumental advantage. Maybe 5 points per event for the research skill, +1 for a lvl 3 associated discipline (Alchemy/Arcane), additional +1 for lvl 4 associated discipline, +2 master sage, and –3 if not at least having 1 lvl of an associated discipline. Then allow those points to be spent on a queue of projects so that if they have spent points on one thing and choose to jump something else ahead in priority they keep that work and points spent on a back burner. Maybe have the number of research required equal the pre-disad value times 2 or 3, or a predetermined value for plot information based on secrecy…

Ian_McAllister · Post by **Ian_McAllister** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 8:33 pm

The points are completely adaptable.. I have always been a fan of factors of ten.. just easier for me to work with.. as for the size of the numbers. really doesn't matter to the Gm's... they can set the cost of a research at any level.. Just think of these numbers as an example and not a set factor.

Post by **GM_Chris** » Sat Oct 15, 2005 9:10 am

BTW there isa skill for research because we dont really want it in game. We offer it as a value add to the game.

Post by **GM-Mike** » Sat Oct 15, 2005 3:03 pm

Translation: Research adds a lot of time for the GM staff. As it is, we barely have enough time to put the events together, especially when there is a short time between events. If everyone could do research, it would rarely get done. That said, we can look at it in the offseason. If we want a point system, we can make researching very difficult (ie high point costs) for non-sages, but still possible given enough time.

Ian_McAllister · Post by **Ian_McAllister** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 1:43 am

Actually this was not to imply that everyone could research.. everything here is just an idea I had to hopefully make a more systematic Research system.. but it still requires the character to have Research from Sage to do any at all.

Kalphoenix · Post by **Kalphoenix** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 5:32 pm

So, with that line of thought...Does that mean basic healing should be more difficult for those who aren't master healers than those who are? Sensing Magic should be more difficult for those who aren't master empaths?

Just playing devil's advocate here, as a person who has basic research, but will never be able to become a master sage. Maybe, instead of lessening the usefulness of research for non-sages, research could just be moved up the chain of sage abilities, so it would cost more to aquire for non-sages?

Ian_McAllister · Post by **Ian_McAllister** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 6:32 pm

Actually research used to be higher on the Sage chain.. the Gm's moved it down as far as I can remember to make it easier for non sage characters to have access to it if they so desired.. so that Craftsmen, Arcanists, and the like would not have to be a Sage to research different stuff. As for being better at research for being more levels in Sage I didn't feel would be too bad as there are no Healer skills like research and as you get to be a higher skilled Healer you gain access to more powerful versions of healing.. healing someone in Negatives and healing multiple people.. but Sages do no gain access to better Researching.. although I would be just fine with more advanced sages not getting more points but I would still fight for them to be able to research more projects with Higher advances in sage.

As I said in an earlier post the points to me are totally mutable.. put them where you will.. I am totally going for a more defined system for players and Gm's to understand.. but leave enough work on the Gm's side to make it still a mystery enough to the players to keep min-maxing to a minimum.

Onimaster · Post by **Onimaster** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:51 pm

No, there previously wasn't a skill for research at all. Everyone could attempt research sage or not.

Though, Heidi does have a valid point.

Ian_McAllister · Post by **Ian_McAllister** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:31 am

Umm, thats not what I was told, or read from the rulebook... the first level of Sage is "Research".. and I have never talked to anyone that has ever done research without it?? If so, then what is the point of the "Research" Skill?

Peace420 · Post by **Peace420** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:10 am

for the Researchers give them a fair chance of answering someones question of "How long is this gonna take to research"?

Why would you know before you even started researching something how long it was gonna take? I could see after you've researched it for an IBE having a pretty good idea of how long it was gonna take and how much effort you were going to need to put in. I think a system could standardize research which the GM's know I'm all for. But it won't give PC's any insight into how long it will take when they are asked IG. Much the same way that an alchemist, craftsman, or an arcane can't always answer questions right away about something. Simply put, we're all pretending to be something we aren't and don't have allthe knowledge that our characters would have and theres no way that the GM's can give us all of that feasibly.

Research Suggestion

Research Suggestion

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