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dier_cire wrote:As for who can tell you it's wrong, the first person would be yourself. If you know something doesn't feel right, don't do it. If there is any question, JUST DON'T DO IT. You can and should police yourself better than any GM/Marshall. If you must prove a point, just do it somewhere inconsequential.

If it comes up DURING the game, ok sure, I'll generally hold off on using it until I can get a ruling, and I'd bet that MOST PEOPLE do this.

But if I go to the GMs and discuss an issue, and they don't feel it's an issue, I'm actually (*shock*) going to assume it's not an issue, and I'm going to do it. And I'm not going to consider it cheating, and I'm not going to feel guilty about it. And if I combine forces with my "friends" as well to do it, that's not cheating either, that's strategy, as I'm sure a few of you would argue from YOUR perspective, and have. Same as if I go to a GM and mention that player so-and-so was doing X, I'm going to accept "Yeah, he can do that" as an answer and not be pissed that I don't get a full disclosure on WHY.

I'm not going to put myself at a disadvantage over someone else, just because I think it seems odd that I can do it, if I made the open and honest attempt with staff to show how it was broken.

You should police yourself, sure, but only so far as the rules give your direction. I can't read the mind of the creator's intent, and this is where I am AGAINST the idea of "spirit of the rules." In fact, I've been outright WRONG as far as "spirit of the rules" go, because a lot of things HAVE been allowed in the past that I feel violate the "spirit of the rules" as far as I'm concerned, but that's why I'm for correcting and clarifying the rules, because I can only worry about the letter of the law, not the spirit of them.

If I've been forthright in showing where I believe the holes are, and I am told everything is fine, then I'm going to go with that. If you later decide, after someone has abused it, that you want to fix it, I'm ok with that, but I'm NOT ok with you retroactively saying the player was cheating, when I was pointing out what I believed was an error in the first place.

And yeah, if the rule writers can't see it, it's not my job to gimp myself. That doesn't prove anything except put myself at a disadvantage. It's nice to say "Ok, well, do it where it doesn't have a major impact on the game," but that sure didn't happen a few years ago.

I still disagree that it's cheating. At that point, it's not even really unethical, because you shared the information with the proper authorities. It was in THEIR hands at that point, and they made the decision that it was working as intended. To accuse otherwise after the fact is just petty. It's all in the interpretation. Look how poorly I have apparently perceived some of the posts in this thread?

I'm not even really sure why I am still arguing this, as I'll add that I'm not a rule nit-picker as a general rule, and I don't think anyone has ever considered me a cheater or cheese weasel. But, I've never seen where something is broken the way other people have. I follow the rules as they are written and how I understand them.

But I draw the line when you want me to just "assume" that I know what the rules are SUPPOSED to be, as opposed to what they actually are on paper. I obviously don't understand the invisible intent, and I think it can be safely agreed then, that I'm probably not the only one. Don't expect me to follow some unwritten rule or be accused of being a cheater.

Most people here know that playing fairly is very important to me or the game means nothing. My apologies if I'm having a tough time expressing exactly WHAT my frustrations are with this subject.

Anyway, I don't see either of us flexing on this point, and that's fine, so I'm done for now.

Again, NOT angry here. I find some of these comments ironic, but I'm not pissed. If anything, I'm amused. Why do people think I am so angry?

Heh, I think you sound frustrated more than anything. I think you have a more severe interpertation of 'cheating' than I do. I consider playing a video game in 'god mode' or 'infinite ammo' to be cheating. However, many people play games like that and have fun.

Now, as someone who admits to not seeing combos and holes, you will have a different view than me. I know what goes through my head when I am looking for holes and such. I know exactly how much I abused the CARPS system back in the day. So when someone uses a hole, I have a pretty good idea of why. That's why I consider it cheating. Without that history, I totally can see your point of view.

Now, I will use one of the oldest examples of hole closing for an example of my points. Back in the day, guilds got free skills for all their members at each level. 3rd level had the Barb Fear skill. Myself and Nelkie both tried to convince the staff to remove it. It wasn't. We said we'd use at the event we were able to get it and it was fine. We used it for 1 battle (fighting aligators in a creek) and that was that. Even though the GMs told me it was ok, I knew it wasn't balance wise. So yeah I abused the system but it got the problem recognized and solved.

As for putting not yourself at a disadvantage and not feeling guilty, the GMs may say something is ok, but that's possibly due to them having a like minded view as yourself, and just not see something. Taking advantage of that isn't right. Fact is, there are a few giant holes still in the system to this day. I will not play them that way because it's game breaking.

Yeah, you nailed it on the head in that last post there, Reid. Like I said, it's all about your personal perception.

And he's right. I probably DO have a harder line on cheating than he does, which is why this conversation is so weird. It's nice that the GMs are so forgiving about it, and tend to walk a "misunderstanding" line, because it is quite possible to misunderstand or misinterpret a lot of the rules. And I think that's all a lot of it is.

I'd rather people "prove their point" in a way that doesn't affect other players too, but that just isn't going to happen. It consistently DOESN'T happen that way. And I don't see ret-cons (Retroactive Continuity) going out for the ones that did happen either. But I accept that.

It's really SO minor though...said it before and saying it again, the outright cheating is SO small in this community. People may perceive cheating or favoritism where there isn't any, and overall I think this is the only problem.

But saying that people are cheating without offering up proof is just making things worse. THAT'S what I don't like. No, we don't want a flame war, but we don't need evasive casting of suspicion, either. It's not cool.

Repeat after me:

"I trust the players around me to play the game to the best of their comprehension in a joint storytelling, gaming project, because we are all in this together, at least in a real-world context. If I feel otherwise, I trust my GMs enough to hand them the evidence of wrongdoing, and accept their ruling, even if I personally feel it is wrong, and to not take action to correct the issue involving said player on my own, including modifying how I use the rules to compensate against said player. I understand that I am probably not privy to details from the GMs or said player about the 'Why.' I accept that it's NOT my call, and I may not have all the information available to make a decision. I will not post on the public part of the forums with shady accusations of cheating. I will let the GMs handle it, even if I disagree (And I realize I have the right to tell them that in PMs, or even discuss it with other players in PMs, if it makes me feel better). I will move on, and if I can't, I will find a different hobby and not hang around and make other players miserable with my paranoia."

Yes, the staff is human. But I STILL have to trust that what they tell me is right until I am told otherwise by another GM. Same as a ref in a sports game. I may not like it (or I might), but I have to abide by it, just the same.

Korrigan Drochlann wrote:In my book, you don’t do that to your friends.

Several actions orchestrated actions perpetrated during the run of the game violate MY perception of the spirit of the rules as a cooperative storytelling experience. You don't do those kind of things to your friends either (well, I might let them get away with it, but I'm a masochist, or something).

But I'm not saying I'm not amused, I am most definitely amused and entertained, which is the primary reason I "play." But apparently my perception of "spirit of the rules" differs. Sooooo....

While I see most of your points, spirit of the rules doesn't work for me, for that simple reason. It works insofar as before I take a question to a moderator. Then, what I am told, stands until I am told something else.

The game is designed for us to kill each other off brutally. I'm not ok with this, persay, but it's unrealistic to roleplay to NOT allow PKing. Not sure where I can draw the line on damaging spells. But then again, you're talking to the person that thinks 30 magic and the rogue critical 9 as standard abilities are OP. I don't like the insta-kill or damage related stuff, and there is a LOT of it already. These abilities, or a Vorpal knockout or sleep almost always amounts to the same thing. Does it mean I shouldn't use them?

Getting back to the "main" topic, I DO have suggestions though:

If there is a question on a spell/item/potion/whatever having a break, what is wrong with just putting it on hold when a problem is suspected? Then, no one abuses it until it can be checked out, even if that means it's out for the long-term? That's fair. No chance of anyone abusing it in the meantime. No need for the "I can use it if they can use it" mentality.

Someone has to check PCs in anyway, require players to check in (We kind of already do this now, I think) their spells/items/potions/recipes/whatever and if one is on hold, tell them it isn't available for this event. You can sticker the spell tags in their book or something...make some quickie tags with dates out of post-it notes that are only good for that event. Sure it sucks that it isn't available, but it preemptively cures abuse and makes it fair for everyone. Since spells have to be tagged, it's not that weird.

If someone is using it in-game without having checked it in, then it's pretty clear that they are cheating.

It's stickier with potions/items made at an event, since anyone can be handed a potion and not know if it's legal, but maybe a list of "illegal" potions could be posted at NPC camp, or not allow players to use potion tags until they have taken them to NPC camp to get signed and dated, ala "cleared" for the event. We already have to go to NPC camp for sage hints or crafted items and such, taking a group of potions to get tagged/marked/signed at NPC camp seems reasonable enough.

I'm not a huge fan of this one as the system goes now, but it could work....reword alchemy/craftsman and arcane so they only have access to so many recipes at one time based on their level, and have to go to NPC camp with a "charge" time to swap out recipes during the event. This would leave less recipes for the staff to have to approve/disprove on check-in, but isn't a hardline on being unable to switch to use of a different recipe if the player felt the need. Spells work something like this in the mechanics I am working on.

I think these are a better compromises than removing the ability to research them completely.

Here are some examples of people out right cheating

1. The power of vampire potion. Getting knocked down to negative 600. Cleanse your self, and drink another power of the vampire potion and be at 5 life. It is an obivous rule break and should not be used this way even if the potion does not say this.

2. Not taking the time to remove a physrep, act out drining a potion, and than reading the tag. If this is not done, you are not effected by the potion.

3. Finding a way in the rules to be immune to normal and magic damage for a combat.

4. Carrying 100+ resources on your body

I can go one, but these are some of the out right cheats that the NPC might or might not see that PC's see all the time.

try again.

All potions must have a tag stating what the potion is and what it does. To use a potion you must
do a 5count to simulate drinking a potion and than read the tag. Only then does the potion take
effect. If you have a phys-rep of the potion that is more than the tag, you only need no mimic the
act of drinking a potion and then read the tag to have the potion take effect. Only 1 potion can be
used at a time.

(1. The power of vampire potion. Getting knocked down to negative 600. Cleanse your self, and drink another power of the vampire potion and be at 5 life. It is an obivous rule break and should not be used this way even if the potion does not say this. ) This true. also, the definition of NORMAL damage means damange with no calls attached, not NON-MAGIC.

why 100+ cheating? seven is cheating.(of course with money this problem pretty much goes away.).

Actually using a power of the vampire to heal yourself in negatives I would consider cheating.

Any potion that says you are at X life is only to be used while in positive life.

One of those things I always thought was self explanatory.

Will need to add it to all of the tags.

I have seen PLENTY of potions used wrong, by PLENTY of people. Some people I've never actually seen them use a potion correctly.

That first example is cheating in at least 3 DIFFERENT ways and people have done it. Not phys repping in some way is the same thing to me. I may not do makeup but I make sure I have an orange headband in my stuff in case I use an appearance altering potion. I know some people may not like the orange headband thing but it's better than not doing it at all.

There are all kinds of things I think should be "self explanatory cheating," like brewing potions under your bed, but apparently this is ok, so again, I'm sorry, but things are not "self-explanatory" to me.

Put it on paper or give me a field-ruling, otherwise I have to accept it is not cheating.

General Maximus wrote:1. The power of vampire potion. Getting knocked down to negative 600. Cleanse your self, and drink another power of the vampire potion and be at 5 life. It is an obivous rule break and should not be used this way even if the potion does not say this.

GM_Chris wrote:Actually using a power of the vampire to heal yourself in negatives I would consider cheating.

Any potion that says you are at X life is only to be used while in positive life.

One of those things I always thought was self explanatory.

Will need to add it to all of the tags.

See, I don't think any of that has ever crossed my mind. Not saying I've ever done it myself, but how am I supposed to just KNOW that, unless it says somewhere "All potions must be taken in positive life unless the potion states otherwise?" This is a horrible thing for me to admit, I'm sure, but I've never taken the time to memorize the entire rule-book. It MIGHT say that somewhere, actually, but unless it's in the Alchemy discipline or somewhere similar, I don't remember seeing it. Better for it to be on the tag, so when someone who doesn't do Alchemy gets access to the potion, they know what they are allowed to do with it.

Never heard of the orange headband thing. If that is a rule, or even just an OPTION, it should be posted somewhere, right? I have no idea what that even means or would be for.

General Maximus wrote: 3. Finding a way in the rules to be immune to normal and magic damage for a combat.

Again, this would be considered a break, and should be fixed. If you are concerned about it, help make it happen. Find those breaks and spend some time sending them in. I don't know what the cure should be for it, other than making it a rule that X and B potion can't be used together, same as we do for skills involving crush and vorpal or whatever skills can't be used together. If these aren't being brought to GM attention, then it's probably cheating. My suggestions above would help with this one...take them out until the problem can be fixed.

General Maximus wrote:2. Not taking the time to remove a physrep, act out drining a potion, and than reading the tag. If this is not done, you are not effected by the potion.

4. Carrying 100+ resources on your body.

Also, you have the option to make a 5 count instead of phys-repping the potion, but you still have to have the tag out. Otherwise I think we are all agreed that these are flat out cheating.

If these are things people are doing "all the time," Then I'm pretty sure it would be easy to catch them on it sooner or later.

Also, the resources one is in the book, so, no guessing. It would be cheating. How did you catch them with 100+ resources on them? Did you SEE them with 100+ resources on them? If they were doing it, even if there wasn't a staffie around, I'm sure there were other PCs who saw them doing it too as witnesses. Or are you just speculating that because 100 resources got from point A to point B that they must have been cheating when it happened? If you caught them with the 100+ resources on them, honestly here, I don't think the GMs would have gotten pissed off if you called a gamestop and asked for a moderator, cause this would be fairly obvious cheating.

Did you take your complaints to the staff? Even if you can't offer up proof, they can still look into it and monitor things. And you can accept their decision, or you can decide it's not worth the headache, drop it and walk away.

It's not your job as a player or as an NPC to take it any farther than that, INCLUDING making posts on the forums about players cheating. It doesn't solve the issue. I'm not sure if you feel you will guilt the guilty parties into going straight, or wear them down, or what here? If someone is knowingly cheating, then I doubt they are going to give a rat's ass about the "someone is cheating" posts. I also doubt they are going to jump in and say "You're right, I'll stop cheating." All it does is fracture the community more, which I can't imagine is what you want, unless it's a creative form of psychology meant to have us all at each-others throats and miserable.

I said this to Chris in a PM, and I understand we don't name names because we don't want to start flame wars, but this is worse. SERIOUSLY.

Did I say this already? This is what made ME take a break from Final Haven. The OOC and accusations that fracture the community. In-game drama only, please.

Can we make this a new forum rule?: No more publicly posted Cheating Accusation posts, no even insinuating it, unless we are going to name names and get it resolved. A year and a half of this has obviously gotten nowhere. I was hoping things would be different after some time had passed, but it's clear this isn't the case.

Sweeping it under the carpet will not change anything either.

As for the resources, I have asked for some resources from people before and they pull out a pouch filled with tags. I said, that is not correct, informed GM's, and nothing was done. The GM's spend there precious time running the game instead of policing the players. I think we preferr the GM's running the game and having great plots for people to go one instead of making sure everyone is following the rules.

The reason I keep bringing this up is, cheating hurts the game and takes alot of people enjoyment away from the game. It is a problem and there is no realy easy solution. Who has the time to clamp down on the PC's cheating and kick them out? It is a full time postion with no rewards. I have a feeling GM's would rather have root cannel instead of policing the PC's for an entire event.

It boils down to people taking responsiblity of their actions and doing whats best for the game instead of themselves. There is no way to write the rules to cover all contingences. It comes down on using common sense and if you think using a certian item/skill might give you a major advantage that is not spelled out on the card or skill, get claifification before using it or just don't plain use it. As fellow players, etc.. If you use it and turns out to be a major break, I and many see this as cheating. And if I had my way, that person would be kicked out. But that is just my opinion.

I think Todd said it best. "Do not piss on my biscuit and call it honey"

I agree that things need to be written out, but I'm pretty sure that it does say in the book that you can't take potions that are not healing potions in negatives unless specified on the potion. Once, ok maybe you didn't know. Corrected and it happens again and you're a jackass that needs to go.

Why does talking about people breaking the rules fracture the community? Breaking the rules fractures the community. That is what creates at least this part of the drama, not talking about it. No one is forcing anyone to read anything on these boards so don't read it if you think it's gonna get your ire up. Or read it, leave long replies and get frustrated or take it with a grain of salt, it's each person's choice.

A lot of the combo breaks come in with items, because there is no limit with what you can do with items or how many you can use at one time. So someone submits research that makes them immune to normal damage, then 1 year later they submit something that gives them the ability to parry from the rear, then a year later they submit something that makes them immune to magic, and they get a set of kandium armor. Now they take vorpal as normal, are immune to normal and magic and can parry from the rear. That just ain't right in this game but there really is no way to stop it in the current system.

People have real life drama, it happens. People won't always agree it happens. People's IG drama will spill into IRL, it happens. People will choose to leave because some threshold they decide on has been met, it happens. There isn't anything anyone can do about it and this IS the place to talk about the things that each of us feel is affecting the game, whether it be rules that don't work right, cheaters or that damn Atrum that just won't stay FRAKKIN' DEAD!!!!

I'm having a good chuckle at the moment.

You can say the staff is doing a good job, or you can believe they are screwing up. You can't say both. You can trust them to make that call, or you can't. You obviously don't. That part is fine. It is your choice.

Cheaters will cheat. Period. Since these theoretical cheaters obviously aren't going to stop cheating on their own, the only thing left is to leave it in the Referee's (In this case, the GM's) hands. I am not saying PCs shouldn't take the time to learn the rules, but I am getting awfully tired of hearing that policing the players is not the GM's job. In cases such as this, where a bunch of people are up in arms about their perception of events, it most certainly IS the GM's job to resolve it.

If they haven't done anything about it by now, then the problem is probably NOT whatever you are perceiving it as.

I think it's obvious that cheating hurts the game. I think THAT is the one thing, maybe the ONLY thing, that CAN be safely assumed.

I'm not talking about "sweeping it under the rug" and pretending nothing happened, I'm talking about making the decision on whether or not you can deal with the fact that nothing has been done about it to your personal satisfaction. If not, then that's your choice not to participate. Just like it was my choice not to participate because I was sick of hearing about it.

If you STILL aren't happy after you made the attempt to fix the situation, you never will be. You harping on it for the last year and a half obviously hasn't helped the problem resolve itself, either.

I think Todd said it best. "Do not piss on my biscuit and call it honey." I agree. Works as well here, too. Or better yet, "Don't use my bedroom for your toilet." If you can't get over it, go piss your bad feelings out somewhere else. I can be cute too.

That vamp potion thing, priceless. That some douche actually did that and figured "well the rules don't say I can't..." wow. I didn't realize there were people like that in the game. Even if the wording is ...something ... something... upon drinking the drinker is put to 5 life... something, how does one go, "well it says it puts me to 5 life, this must be the best damn healing potion eveh!" I don't gm anywhere as I'd have made that person an example, and probably gone around to every larp I know of and informed them about said person being a cheese dick.

I suppose it could say users Maximum life becomes 5, instead of how it is written, but the person cheese dicking that knew that's what the tag's intent was and chose to cheat regardless. To say otherwise is meritless.