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Hate to say this but I agree with Reid. I've seen flat out rule breaks because people either don't know the rules OR just don't care.

i swallowed a potion tag once. *LOL* I was in a rush.

cole45 wrote:i swallowed a potion tag once. *LOL* I was in a rush.

It wasn't poison was it?

it wasn't then. it might be now. *grin*

dier_cire wrote:

Jaycen Blackhawk wrote:
If you ever played GURPS (especially GURPS supers), you never know what anyone else's skills are or how they work exactly, but everyone follows the same end result rules. I don't recall anyone ever complaining about that system.

I avoided GURPS with a heartfelt passion; I'm a Champions fan. My argument is everyone was using the same rulebook to create their character. I may not have known what skills you had or what abilities when you used them, but I did know that you had 4 Stats, that your skills were either Very Easy, Easy, Average, Hard or Very Hard, and that if you had Invulnerability you overbalanced the game.

I'm simply saying that everyone needs access to all the rules, regardless if they use them. Look at 2nd Ed D&D, everyone used the same basic rules, even though not everyone had access to all of the rules printed. A 1st level character was still limited in what they could do, they needed to advance in level to gain access to the new abilities. But everyone who had a copy of the Player's Handbook was able to see what things did, even if they didn't or couldn't use them abilities.

Very true, and I go back and forth on inforcing rules and simply changing my NPC to compinsate for the rule braker so I can maintane scene.

General Maximus wrote:Looking at all these issue's and complaints, what is the true root casue. I think Eric hit it on the head. PC's not reading the item cards they have and not learning the rules for their characters.

I have heard to many people say they don't know the rules and come jsut to role play. But you need to know the rules so everyone is playing on the same level even if you are just coming to the game to roleplay. You need to know how to roleplay the effect your be subjected to! It like playing monoply when 1 person get $200 for passing go and the other person gets $500. It makes the game unfun than.

But how does one force people to learn the rules with out driving hordes of people away from the game?

I would rather play a game with 10 people who didn't cheat than 45 people with a few cheaters.

dier_cire wrote:See, that's not really true. As long as spells follow the same end results as any other skill why do you need to see it? If my spell takes 14 steps that I need to follow, but in the end I can now swing poison for a combat, why do you as a fellow player need to know it's internal workings? You don't.

dier_cire wrote:People aren't following the rules, Chris... What you saw was a flat out rule break adn should have been reprimanded, especially if they used something important.

General Maximus wrote:Looking at all these issue's and complaints, what is the true root casue. I think Eric hit it on the head. PC's not reading the item cards they have and not learning the rules for their characters.

These.

But dumbing down the rules doesn't fix the cheating/mistakes. Correcting the mistaken, and/or cornering the cheater will. Please don't cater to the lowest common denominator.

General Maximus wrote: I have heard to many people say they don't know the rules and come jsut to role play. But you need to know the rules so everyone is playing on the same level even if you are just coming to the game to roleplay.

Not to pick on you here or anything, but to be fair, the same can be said for the people who come just for combat. I'm sure there are guilty members of each party, depending on your perspective. If you are going to play, you need to be expected to roleplay and fight (and the mechanics of each), at least in a basic sense, or you aren't participating correctly. And I'm going to continue pounding this one in. It's a LARP: not a LA, not an RP, but BOTH. Ignoring or trivializing the mechanics of either is wrong.

I'm not saying you have to be GOOD at any of those, but rules-wise, you DO have to understand how calls affect YOU. And if you are an alchemist/arcane, you ARE expected to know how the rules of your spells work. Alchemy is stickier IMO, because anyone can use a potion, so more room for mistakes. But again, all these recipes are supposed to be tagged. No tag, no use. Period.

Also, during the few events I participated in last year and the off-season before, I saw a lot of whining about cheating when people were using the rules AS THEY ARE WRITTEN. That is NOT cheating. If something looks broken, look into getting it fixed, but don't piss and moan that someone is cheating, because it makes you look petty and immature. I could publicly bitch specifics about "cheating" (I consider them mistakes, but I could call them cheating easily enough, since they were perpetrated by longtime players) done two years ago, but I chose to pass that information along to relevant parties and call it good. Can it change anything now? No. Did it have a major impact on players and characters? Oh hell yes. The only time I really think about it now is when I hear people bitch that other people are cheating, and I find that ironic.

Since we're talking about why people stopped "playing" again, I'll just jump in and say THAT'S why I couldn't stand to play more than the 1st event last year. I got sick at the Brighton event, and after that, I just decided it wasn't worth it to play "against" folks who were bitter because they felt certain things were unfair, and weren't happy with the way the fixes were handled.

I'm hesitant to even play this year, but I was convinced to give it another shot, so I will, and if I'm still miserable for the same reasons, I'll call it good.

Don't give me this "spirit of the rules" drivel. Fix it, or ask to see it get looked at, and if it doesn't get fixed, it must not be that broken. DEAL WITH IT.

All I'm sayin' is, DON'T punish me by modifying the rules, because someone ELSE isn't following the rules.

Don't take it upon yourself to "police" other players if you feel they are consistently cheating. Pass it along to the GMs, because as moderators, THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE THERE FOR. If you aren't happy with their ruling, then THIS ISN'T THE GAME FOR YOU. If you retaliate, it devolves into a back and forth fight where no one is happy until someone "wins" by getting someone "punished." Frankly, it's none of your business how staff chooses to resolve an issue.

I feel this game would be a whole hell of a lot better if people would pitch the bitter passive-aggression (Or in game aggression, if they feel "obligated" to "cheat" in retaliation) and worry about taking care of themselves. Observe and report, and leave the marshaling to the GMs.

Most of the "loopholes" I've heard about DO get taken to staff, and are told it's fine. Then it is used in-game, people cry "Broken!" Sadly, that's what it takes to get fixed. Oh well.

And GMs, it may be past time to look into coming up with a policy for ongoing cheating. If people are consistently cheating, nothing you do to "fix" the rules is going to stop a cheater from cheating.

I really don't think the issue with cheating is anywhere near as big or pronounced as people say it is. I think people are being overly dramatic and blowing things out of proportion, and I think the events of the past few years have made people overly paranoid. I think it comes down to people wanting to know information that is, quite frankly, none of their business. Ask, and when a moderator tells you it's legal, leave it at that and stop pouting like a kid who thinks they got a smaller slice of pie.

Heidi for the win!!!

Jaycen Blackhawk wrote:I'm simply saying that everyone needs access to all the rules, regardless if they use them. Look at 2nd Ed D&D, everyone used the same basic rules, even though not everyone had access to all of the rules printed. A 1st level character was still limited in what they could do, they needed to advance in level to gain access to the new abilities. But everyone who had a copy of the Player's Handbook was able to see what things did, even if they didn't or couldn't use them abilities.

Everyone already does have access to all the rules. Spells cannot defy those. If I make a spell that lets me call +1 damage, you don't need to know the details of how I'm calling extra damage, just take the damage.

There are a few spells that do add a new call and are public knowledge (Arctic Blast being about the only one that has any combat effect among them).

As for D&D, how many times did you bother to look up what a spell really did when you were hit by one? I know I never did. I trusted the GM to play by the rules and tell me how I was affected (take X damage from the giant ball of fire, you are now paralyzed, etc). If another player casted a spell I didn't know, I didn't look it up, I just accepted it and moved on. If the GM questioned it or had to see what it did, he asked that player. How is that any different than me not having those pages in the book?

Ultimately, making everything public will do ZERO to help the current issues with spells.



As for the whole people whining about cheating, if you know for a fact that you can use X to do something completely unintended without informing a GM ahead of time, it's still cheating whether it's written that way or not. If you ask the GMs and they ignore you, go ahead and do it. You may get away with it once before it's corrected. If you go and tell all your buddies and you all do it at the same time, you should be politely asked not to come back.

dier_cire wrote: As for the whole people whining about cheating, if you know for a fact that you can use X to do something completely unintended without informing a GM ahead of time, it's still cheating whether it's written that way or not. If you ask the GMs and they ignore you, go ahead and do it. You may get away with it once before it's corrected. If you go and tell all your buddies and you all do it at the same time, you should be politely asked not to come back.

I tend to disagree with you on this, IF you mean that it's still cheating if you tell the GMs, they decide it isn't a problem, and you decide to coordinate a strategic action utilizing it with your "buddies." If you make the problem or possible exploit known to the GMs, and they decide it isn't a problem, and you use it, in WHATEVER context, that's NOT cheating and does not warrant a banning. Some people don't even bother doing the telling part. I've noticed that the only way some issues get fixed IS to use them and SHOW how it's broken. Is it particularly ethical? Maybe not. Is it cheating though? No. And I think people who see the holes/exploits that clear them with the GMs ahead of time do not really get upset if they get fixed. In fact, it seems to be a goal, from my perspective. Squeaky wheel gets the grease, or so they say.

Also, I was informed that I might be reading waaaaay too much into the emotional side of people's posts, so I just wanted to clarify by saying that I'm just sticking my personal feelings out there.

We're (mostly) all friends here, right?

Passion FTW. I'm not negatively fired up, I'm not pissed off. When I am, I'll make it known. BELIEVE ME!

Also, my sarcasm/comedy button is broken, so I miss a lot of that kind of thing.

Well Heidi, if you came to more events you would know that cheating was addressed at the last event and will continue to be addressed.

The policy is quite clear or will be as soon as I write it here: If you get caught cheating, you will have an opportunity to convince us that it was all a big misunderstanding of the rules. If we are convinced by your passionate plea, we will explain the rule to you as clearly as we know how and implore you to not let it happen again. If it happens again, you're done, gone, outta here. I'm done with all that crap. I don't care if you are a noob or a GM at another chapter (Matt), you're done. If you are unable to convince us it was a big misunderstanding, you skip the whole second chance shabang and go right to the exodus (not to get religious).

As an aside, if you do cheat or "make a mistake," we'll be much more sympathetic if you just own it than try and lie and say it didn't happen. I have even less tolerance for that.

GM_Chris wrote:Very true, and I go back and forth on inforcing rules and simply changing my NPC to compinsate for the rule braker so I can maintane scene.

The former helps the game in multiple ways, the latter just makes it look like you're arbitrarily changing up stuff because you're upset. If the GM's don't enforce the rules on the spot or at the least very soon after it makes everyone who follows the rules feel like there is no point in doing so.

Ovak Stonecrusher wrote:Well Heidi, if you came to more events you would know that cheating was addressed at the last event and will continue to be addressed.

May I clarify and say I'm NOT the one really concerned with cheating? I took my complaints through official channels and really, I left it at that. You may notice that I only bring it up again when someone starts talking about cheating. I don't feel there IS that much cheating, and I feel that it's handled fine, overall. I also feel the perception of cheating has been blown way out of proportion.

Working on the "more events" thing. If I'm not on a jury next week that takes me through Friday, scheduled to work (Asked for it off), or told I have some serious medical condition before the 1st event, I will be there this season and at your mercy.

Atrum Draconus wrote:

GM_Chris wrote:Very true, and I go back and forth on inforcing rules and simply changing my NPC to compinsate for the rule braker so I can maintane scene.

The former helps the game in multiple ways, the latter just makes it look like you're arbitrarily changing up stuff because you're upset. If the GM's don't enforce the rules on the spot or at the least very soon after it makes everyone who follows the rules feel like there is no point in doing so.

That's the mindset that worries me. Less so with a GM, who can make that call, although it needs to be the exception, and not the rule (although it needs to be addressed, but I understand if it can't be done quite on the spot), but definitely a worry with other members of gamestaff.

Just for an example: Nelkie, being open and honest, here, you repeatedly say that you feel certain players are cheating. If you are convinced that someone is cheating, even if you are told otherwise, can you really keep a fair mindset when dealing with said player(s)? Or do you feel you need to fudge a few things in retaliation while NPCing (or even of you are PCing)? Again, I'm not saying this is happening, I'm just pointing out where my worries are.

I'm paranoid about the paranoia.

Also, I offer myself up for public (Or private) lashing if someone REALLY gets that upset over one of my posts. *wiggles*

Second also, "Spell Release" sounds dirty.

its a game



im setting that by itself so people can look at it and understand what it means, it means your going to win, your going to lose, your going to live, your going to die, your going to be rich, your going to be poor, your going to make good choices, and your going to make bad ones, things will be up to you, and they wont.


no ones in control


you are not in control of other people, you cant be, its imposible, people are going to do thing you dont want them to no matter what, as much as you try to control them its a false sense of reality (in game not rules) and to get upset over something someone else did is childish and pointles

ITS A GAME, this means its suposed to be fun, fun, fun, FUN, its not suposed to be about rules (though they help) its about you enjoying yourself, i have been so tired of rules and ploting and backstabing and 10 people all thinking there smarter than everyone else, its rediculous,

its a game

the preceding was not meant to sound mean but to help people GET A GRIP on what there fighting over