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I agree with Todd. I even tried to spiff it up a bit, but learned you can't shine a turd.

(ok so 63.4% of this post was just so I could say "can't shine a turd", 21.3% was just to disagree with Chris, 10.7% to show Mike I'm not in a bad mood, and the remaining 48.2% was to show I don't want to do math)

GM_Chris wrote:I have no idea what you are saying but when I saw you log in I knew you were posting on this thread.

Even though I dont understand I will have to dissagree with you just so we can add drama and that you are Todd and for no other reason.

And as long as we are diametrically opposed.. All is right in the world.

And Mythbusters proved you can indeed shine a turd.. You just have to be willing to play in crap and ruin a good pair of pants.

Ovak Stonecrusher wrote: These are the combos we're talking about. The player knew they wanted a flame thrower of mass destruction in year one but that we would never approve such a thing. Thus the patience is the key...

Gotcha. But still...you could just say no? *grins* It seems like the issue isn't with the spells, persay...it's with what gets through.

If people feel the chart is still broken, well...I guess I don't know what to say to that. Keep working on it, I guess? Third time's the charm...or is that the fourteenth?

In my opinion there is really no way to take researching spells out now and it not seem...I'm not sure what the word is I'm looking for now, but it's not a positive one.

Sure, there are tons of ways to make new spells/recipes plot only, but not unless you want to throw us another cataclysm and fundamentally change how magic works. Realistically, then the magic could have a different source, such as the elemental planes, and function similarly to clerical magic in D&D, where the spells have a source and they aren't researched, they just are, or are not. Or from assembling pieces of Mithril, or whatever. That kind of plot-based spell distribution I would support.

Otherwise, telling me that Billy the Wizard can research magic spells but I can't is going to make me want to kick your ass.

People piss and moan now when an otherwise normal NPC doesn't follow "mechanical" rules for path/discipline, you tell me how it is more normal for an otherwise normal individual to be able to research spells, but I can't.

You want me to suspend my disbelief for that, then you can go ahead and put passwall right back in.

Sure, you can make the story fit any rules, but can you do it in a way that doesn't sound like a cop-out? Can you do it without making a player feel you are taking something HUGE away from them that they always had before and not giving them something in return?

Alternatively, I'm for the inclusion of required upkeep lab buildings in order to research things like spells/items and potions, with temporary penalties like poisoning, disease and starvation if researching is attempted without said tools, based on the level/point cost of the spell/potion. It's still not perfect, but it's a more believable middle ground.

And I'm not pissed. Nothing has happened yet, and I really don't think anything will, because it would be such a HUGE alteration, on par with saying elves or ga'vin aren't playable anymore, even though they still exist in the world, and that all elves/ga'vin characters have to turn into something else.

Maybe in the 3rd gen Phantera game. I am simply expressing my opinion.

I've seen what Player-based spell research can do to a LARP in both short-term and long-term situations. I've seen a spell list that started as something simple (around 70 spells) turn into an unwieldy monster (over 14,000 spells) in under a decade. I simply have to say that is way to many.

Regardless of my thoughts on Spell Research, I still think players should be required to know all the rules (this includes the rules form Alchemy, Arcane, Crafting, and pretty much everything else in the rulebook). I'm not saying they need to be able to recite chapter and line, but an overall knowledge of what all the skills do and mean should be required. This would mean no more super secret recipes or spells, but it would also mean less game stops and less need to explain an effect to another player.

I guess I'm on my soapbox about In-Game Transparency; an environment where everyone is aware of the mechanics the game uses without some people being more 'special' than others.

Should the NPC's know the rules to?

I agree that every player should have a basic understanding of all the rules for a more stream lined game. But we have people who don't even know the rules for their own abilities.

People come to have fun and some don't take the time to learn the game. They just show up to have fun and hang out. To me this subtracts from the game for me. And I'm not talking about noobs. I'm talking about people who have played the game for years. This is one of the reason I stopped playing FH. It drove me crazy.

Jaycen Blackhawk wrote: This would mean no more super secret recipes or spells, but it would also mean less game stops and less need to explain an effect to another player.

See, that's not really true. As long as spells follow the same end results as any other skill why do you need to see it? If my spell takes 14 steps that I need to follow, but in the end I can now swing poison for a combat, why do you as a fellow player need to know it's internal workings? You don't.

If you are referring to the (very) few spells with special calls, well, they are the exception, not the rule, and most all of them existed at the game's creation or within the first year. And only one or two of those has an effect that needs explaining. The rest are just damage.

If you ever played GURPS (especially GURPS supers), you never know what anyone else's skills are or how they work exactly, but everyone follows the same end result rules. I don't recall anyone ever complaining about that system.

GURPS suppers. those where the days. So Reid, when are you going to GM a campagin for us

General Maximus wrote:GURPS suppers. those where the days. So Reid, when are you going to GM a campagin for us

As soon as I have 2 weeks of free time to design the bad guys.

I only read through some of the postings since we talked about this in the chat channel yesterday but here's my feelings.

I don't think that the PC's should feel like they know everything that could happen to them, there is ALWAYS something out there that you've never heard of or seen. No one is omniscient.

Having all the spells, potions and items be common knowledge won't change anything except that there will be MORE arguments because people will think they know what spell, potion or item you are using. Since it would take someone far too dedicated to a hobby to know everything about everything in the game you'll have people that THINK they know everything ruining game flow all the time.

Research shouldn't have been allowed in the first place. I'd have no problem with it going away as long as new spells, potions and items came in to game on a regular basis. People will be upset but so what, no matter what changes you make in rules people will be upset. If it makes the game better and fixes a problem it should change.

I still feel the problem is people using things and not reading them or assuming they can do something different than they do, which also happens from time to time with skills. (See the huge lists of clarifications each year)

And propagation of those confusions to new people is also an issue. (remembers being told all sorts of wrong things.)

*wouldn't mind seeing research go away for spells,pots,and alch either. and the ability to make MAGIC items concerns me greatly.*

If you don't get an official tag for a new recipe, spell or item you shouldn't be able to use it. I also think that the game needs to go to official tags for anything that changes hands. If you get a potion, item or spell put on you you need an official tag for it. These could be handed out at check-in if new ones are needed. MAYBE have a marshall system where a player could go to a GM or marshall and have them approve the spell, item or potion that changed hands or was cast on someone else.

we do exactly that at WH. Official tags were implimented by both FH and wh last year.

Looking at all these issue's and complaints, what is the true root casue. I think Eric hit it on the head. PC's not reading the item cards they have and not learning the rules for their characters.

I have heard to many people say they don't know the rules and come jsut to role play. But you need to know the rules so everyone is playing on the same level even if you are just coming to the game to roleplay. You need to know how to roleplay the effect your be subjected to! It like playing monoply when 1 person get $200 for passing go and the other person gets $500. It makes the game unfun than.

But how does one force people to learn the rules with out driving hordes of people away from the game?

People are not reading the tags.

I saw a PC during a fight take an invisible potion to their mouth and instantly start kicking my butt.

How does the PC know that the vial they drank was not switched by another PC with a feign death potion? This PC would not because there was no vial and no tag read.

Likewise with spells. The reason a spell book is required to to cast a spell is so that you read everything that is on the spell so you get it right. This is also not happening.

People aren't following the rules, Chris... What you saw was a flat out rule break adn should have been reprimanded, especially if they used something important. The rules are quite clear how to drink a potion.