Detect Lie

Post by **GM_Chris** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:01 pm

Well this skill sucks from my point of view...What do the interrigators think? Any other idea?

Chris

Post by Ug » Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:04 am

Why do you think it sucks?

Lambic · Post by **Lambic** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:59 am

Well I don't know if I would say it sucks, but it does have problems. The biggest problem that I have seen is that there is no oversite, ie to the PC being asked truth is what they remember whether or not that is what happened or not. And there fore when you have two PC that remember an event differently the skill is no longer affective. I can offer an example if people want but I won't with out being asked

I think the idea behind the skill is extremely usefull to PCs, we can get by with out it but I'd rather not.

Post by **GM_Chris** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:04 pm

Well I think I am thinking of the same example as you. It is a subjective skill and it is easy for a PC to think they can say they are not lieing.

Plus like sence magic it can be a dissruptive OOC type of skill to use

Chris

Corbyn · Post by **Corbyn** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:47 pm

Chris the points you raise are valid and have been frustrating for me at times, but the skill has been critically useful in pc/npc interaction and should be kept, at least in some form. I'm not sure how to correct the pc selective memory issue, with such large periods of time between events perspectives cannot help but be skewed to some extent. As far as OOC disruption, I don't think we will or should eliminate evey skill that causes this. I'm all for smooth flow but it would seem to limit pc capabilities too much. Did you have somthing in mind for a replacement skill, or how to modify detect lie?

Post by **GM_Chris** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:40 pm

Well if you like the Skill Vince then I take back my objection.

I might want to change it so to detect lie you need to be in close proximity so you can wisper in their ear. Either that or make it such that the person is compelled to say outloud if they are lieing so it isnt just something the interigator knows. That way the person can say outloud "Yes I am lieing" for all to hear and be not have so much back and forth.

Chris

Annika · Post by **Annika** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:41 pm

Well I'll be the first to say that I've been a PC that has had a different memory than another PC or even NPC (both in game and out of game, of course).

The truth of the matter it is not only possible but likely to be a factor in real life as well as Phantarran life. Sometimes things are simply seen from a different angle or something will stick out in someone's memory that doesn't adequately reflect the whole situation. In fact, I find it frustrating when someone asks my character a question in game and she gives an answer and someone tries reminding her out of game what they recalled the answer being. If I don't remember or don't know, neither does my character. Then again, I may get more nasty comments for even approaching the roleplaying topic again, so I'll stop here.

I say keep the skill mechanic as is, with a possible skill description change from:

"You can spend a Life Point to figure out if a person’s last statement was true or false"

to

"You can spend a Life Point to figure out if a person's last statement was deceitful (intended deceit)."

The deceit/lie should only be discernible to the Interrogator. To argue otherwise is like saying when someone detects magic everyone detects magic. There may be reasons for either the Interrogator or Empath to want to keep their knowledge on the DL.

Dallid · Post by **Dallid** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:37 pm

I agree an interogation result should be told to the Interrogator alone.

The problem with deceit, however, is that it's a gray area. 'Was the last statement true' and 'Was the last statement false' are black and white answers - although perhaps it ought to be clarified that if any part of the statement is false, then the answer to the interrogation is 'false'.

The question 'was the statement deceitful' could lead to extended OOG discussions. Also it takes the responsibility away from the Interrogator to ask the right questions.

Donmayo · Post by **Donmayo** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:56 pm

I like detect lie, the way it is.

But tortured in general should go back to the harmful way!

I miss, the shards of glass being put under fingernails in order to compel the answer! Or to program someone or remove it.

But I guess if this part of the skill is all about body language then never mind...

-Kind of makes me think of those Christian deprogrammers from a few years ago, who would go in and kidnap their adult children and then tortured them into being religious again…
huh that’s weird someone is at the door, on a Sunday… I’ll be right back…ahhhahhaarges!!!!

-SoCo. J

Post by **WayneO42** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:23 pm

Torture can still be played the old fashion way. Thats a Role-playing choice the torturer has to make.

Onimaster · Post by **Onimaster** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:21 am

My only complaint(s) about Detect Lie I have mentioned to some other Phoenix guard...

Like the ambiguity of what is 'true' to the subject. For example: I step forward to Corbyn in a white void space of nothingness just the two of us... I pull out a bow and knock an arrow, drawing the weapon to readiness and take aim at his heart. I close my eyes and let fly. When I open my eyes he's dead, shot through the heart with an arrow, but I have no idea for sure who killed him. I wasn't looking. So, an interrogator asks, "Do you know who killed Corbyn... No. Did you have any involvement... No." And so on.

Though this brings up an interesting point... I was thinking about the Spy discipline. It’s first ability to escape normal bonds (While cool in theory) is never useful as people NEVER use anything but inescapable bonds to tie someone up (Which is paranoid as the only people that escape bonds are usually assassins who have pass wall anyway.). I’d think that a more useful ability for a spy would be a resist to detect lie! Perhaps rework the discipline so Disguise is their first level (like assassin), resist “detect lie” second level, “escape all bonds” third (But not pass through walls), and slander 4th (or something more useful for non-privileged non-humans).

Dallid · Post by **Dallid** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 10:00 pm

Yes, escape bonds is a skill that a character may never end up using. First the character has to get captured - a very rare event. Next, the character must be tied up by a non-interrogator - Very unlikely among Haven organizations, also probably unlikely with NPC groups, too. Then, the character must be left unguarded to do the escaping!

Such an extremely unlikely series of events has occurred only once in Final Haven to my knowledge. Seems if you're a spy, then you have a skill you'll probably never use.

Perhaps 'Escape Artist' can be combined with another Spy skill. For instance, Phase Wall might also allow a Spy to phase through bonds (except for an Interrogator's), and perhaps any other confining thing, like cages or 'Envelopment' calls.

Then 'Escape Artist' could be replaced with something like the ability to go unconcious during an interrogation without having to spend a Hero Point. Or perhaps give Spies the 'Detect Lie' ability, too. Seems like a useful spy thing. Or perhaps 'Dodge Machine Gun Fire at Point Blank Range'. Or give them a poison-dart quill. A chariot that goes underwater. Dang, we need a high level craftsman to specialize as 'Q'.

Post by **GM_Chris** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 10:05 pm

So, an interrogator asks, "Do you know who killed Corbyn... No. Did you have any involvement... No." And so on.

Royal flaming Cheez!

Did you have involvment no LOL Ok if you opened your eyes and he was dead but there was no arrow then hmm ok maybe, but my goodness children have a grasp on cause and effect wether they see the outcome and I sure hope you do to or you may have to ride the short bus next time you come to FH.

Sorry to be cruel but I am LMAO at your example.

Chris

Onimaster · Post by **Onimaster** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:32 am

GM_Chris wrote:
So, an interrogator asks, "Do you know who killed Corbyn... No. Did you have any involvement... No." And so on.
Royal flaming Cheez!

Did you have involvment no LOL Ok if you opened your eyes and he was dead but there was no arrow then hmm ok maybe, but my goodness children have a grasp on cause and effect wether they see the outcome and I sure hope you do to or you may have to ride the short bus next time you come to FH.

Sorry to be cruel but I am LMAO at your example.

Chris

I am not offended at your levity, as long as you aren't suggesting I am stupid because I have a problem with wankers who don't care about the "spirit of the game" rule. I certainly wasn't suggesting I myself could get away with it, or should I have said Dick and Jane rather than Corbyn and I? Or, are you really trying to insult me?

It was meant to be humorous, to a degree, as it was a hyperbole (exaggeration as used for emphasis or effect), and I agree it is total flaming cheese! But, your suggesting that such a thing could never, or has never, happened..?

But, hopefully can you see the point I am trying to make. If the person in question is backed into a corner, and decides to be a jerk, there is nothing but the GMs interpretation of events and stepping in to stop him/her (Assuming the GMs are aware of the situation to step in.).

There is no mention of whether the ability will detect the factual truth, perceived truth, rationalized truth... and to what extent someone can hide behind nit picky details until the investigator either finally asks a question that can't be danced around, gives up, or drops from life point expenditure.

But, on the same dime it's not easy to write a rule that regulates such a thing, but I would like to see the ability discussed in the rules as to what constitutes jumping the shark or honorable play on such things.

Detect Lie

Detect Lie

RE

RE

RE

Re: RE