Bows and Crossbows

[Bob-Z (kabre)]

Hey,

This isn't a very big deal, but let me know what you think.

I mentioned this to a couple of people at the November FH gathering, and wanted to throw it out there to all the GMs for consideration. Most of the members of the Order of the Phoenix carried crossbows with them to this event. In general, they were a fairly useful tool, but I think they could have been more effective if governed by a slightly different rule structure than the standard bow.

Roland whipped out his bow and the archers engaged in a bit of target practice on Saturday night. I noticed that compared to our crossbows, his long bow proved to be more accurate (in the right hands), shoot further, and much faster than all of the crossbows. I was assured, and verified that the bow did not exceed the 25# limit for a ranged weapon as stated in the rules. As an archery fanatic, I realized, then, that I should have seen this coming.

Crossbows and bows behave incredibly differently with regard to their projectile's ballistics. If you were to take an arrow and a bolt with the same grain weight, and relatively comparable draw length and projectile length, and compare them, the following data is generally true:

Projectile Weight - 500 grains
DRAW WEIGHT - crossbow = 165lbs, Bow@100%eff = 67 lbs.
FEET PER SECOND (SPEED) - crossbow = 265, Bow = 260

Without going into the math behind the ballistics, it's easy to see that the speeds are basically the same, but the crossbow, in this case, requires almost 100 more pounds of draw weight to achieve it.

I'm assuming that the 25# standard was probably tested and established with a conventional bow, and not a crossbow. Offering myself as a target for Roland's bow to feel the impact, I think the 25# limit is fair for a standard bow.

Other things to note:

Conventional, simple, bows are physically quicker to cycle arrows than crossbows (I can get off at least 1.5 arrows in a bow to 1 bolt in a crossbow)

Conventional bows offer the option of fully helically fletched veins to provide better accuracy

The length of a standard bow's arrow is longer, providing even better accuracy.

If possible, I'd like to do some field testing to see if I can come up with a comparable draw weight limit for a crossbow, that would allow it to fire bolts with similar energy and speed to the standard bow. I have an available chronograph to measure the projectiles' speed so I can probably get it pretty close.

Again, this isn't a huge deal, and please don't think I'm an idiot for getting so in depth about it -- just trying to make a case.

Thanks for your time

Bob-z

[WayneO42]

Crossbows and Recurves Bows are two completely different monsters. To compare them, we need to find some common ground. The best thing to use to measure their power is the pound/inch. It is a measurement of the draw length times the prod poundage. The limit for a bow is 700lb/in (25# X 28 in draw). The limit for a crossbow is 600lb/in (typically 50# draw x 12 in draw).

You will notice that the bow has 100 lb/in higher limit. The reason for this is the fact that you can partially draw a bow for a "Softer" shot at close range where as with a crossbow you are locked in to a full draw.

Conventional, simple, bows are physically quicker to cycle arrows than crossbows (I can get off at least 1.5 arrows in a bow to 1 bolt in a crossbow)

True. Thats why heavy crossbows do +1. IMHO I thnk all crossbows should do +1 with no "Re-cock" time. There is no need to make an artificial rule when the physrep takes care of it for you.

Conventional bows offer the option of fully helically fletched veins to provide better accuracy

The length of a standard bow's arrow is longer, providing even better accuracy.

There ar no fully helical fletching on bolts because the bolt travels in a much straighter line from the tip of the crossbow to the target. The fletchings that are on the bolt are to stabilize the back end of the bolt as it "Skids" off the string and to keep the nose stable. Traditionally bolts were way heavier than arrows which gave them alot more stability in the air because the shaft did not flex as much at the start of the flight.

Traditionally, crossbows are much more accurate than bows. If you are having acuracy issues with your bolts, try making the shafts out of 1/4" fiberglass rod (Reflector posts available at Home Depot). Wrap the shaft in strapping tape to prevent splinters. Wrap vertically along the shaft. 1 piece of 1" wide strapping tape will go all the way around the shaft. For the fletching, try one of these http://www.combat-archery.com/routchanapd.htm. Its what we use in SCA combat archery in the Kingdom of Trimaris to prevent the fletching from penetrating a helm. It has the added bonus of stabalizing the bolt in the air MUCH better than traditional fletching. Also, if you are using a non-nocked traditional bolt, it gives more area for you string to strike thus reducing mis-fires. Of course, now instead of mis-fireing it just sends the bolt off target but it atleast gets it out there BTW: The fletching tube is made out of 100 psi silo-flex which is a tubing used for sprinkler systems. It is available at Home Depot or Lowes.

As for the head of the bolt, ideally I would Go to the archery shop and pick up rubber blunts for the tip of the shaft to keep it from penetrating the foam. Then, use a piece of solid 2" diameter closed cell foam cut about 3 inches long. Drill a 1/4" hole 1" deep and slide the shaft in with some epoxy to keep it in place. Then, tape the head horizonatlly with three strips of 1" wide duct tape and leave both ends uncovered. This will make the head hit softer and make it last longer because it will prevent air pockets which blow out the foam.

Sorry about the long post. I'm just really into combat archery now

[dier_cire]

Am I wrong or is this basically, object A has acceleration X over 28in and object B has acceleration X over 12in? To compensate, you double X for object B, as in Wayne's comments?

[Bob-Z (kabre)]

Sweet, I was unaware (as were the rest of the newbies) that there was a +1 to heavy crossbows. It seems like there was some confusion about the damage that bows/x-bows really did. We read that they did 3v (light) at one point, then found out at the larp that they only did 1V.

As far as accuracy, I think I mis-spoke. The only time we were having accuracy issues was using the x-bow at an effective range (because of lack of power). I can hit dead center of mass on anything consistently at 20 feet or so with our x-bows, but at that distance its hardly worth using a ranged weapon (and completely worthless beyond the first loaded shot) because your opponent will be on you almost before you can lose your x-bow and draw your melee weapon.

Quote from Wayne042: "The limit for a bow is 700lb/in (25# X 28 in draw). The limit for a crossbow is 600lb/in (typically 50# draw x 12 in draw). "

Are these the rules for bows and crossbows at FH??? When we had some GM's inspect the bows at the event and informed them that our bows came in under 25# we weren't corrected. If im wrong, I apologize for the first post, and there's nothing more to discuss. A 50# draw at 12 inches is absolutely fine.

Here's an excerpt from the rules:

"A bow deals a base damage of two vorpal. Crossbows are a little more complicated. A hand crossbow deals a base damage of one vorpal, a light crossbow deals a base damage of three vorpal, and a heavy crossbow deals a base damage of five vorpal. Crossbows also have a readying time. Before you may shoot a light/hand crossbow, you must charge for five seconds. Before shooting a heavy crossbow, you must charge for ten seconds. This applies to each time you shoot a bolt. Any bow used in Final Haven must be rated at twenty-five pounds or less."

If i misread your post Wayne042, and you were suggesting that pounds/inch is how bows/x-bows SHOULD be rated, then i totally agree with you.

Also, with regard to the nocked/non-nocked issue, we put a slight knock point in the end of the shaft of the bolt, and married it to the string, then creaded a nock-loop for the pin to hold on to -- seemed to work very well. No misfires and, as I said, at their effective range, they were very accurate consistently.

Should I post this in the "rule questions" forum at this point?

Later,

Bob-Z

[WayneO42]

As far as accuracy, I think I mis-spoke. The only time we were having accuracy issues was using the x-bow at an effective range (because of lack of power). I can hit dead center of mass on anything consistently at 20 feet or so with our x-bows, but at that distance its hardly worth using a ranged weapon (and completely worthless beyond the first loaded shot) because your opponent will be on you almost before you can lose your x-bow and draw your melee weapon.

They are only worthless the way fights currently break down at FH. If you had the fighters form and HOLD a line or wedge then you could fire from 20' with no problem and support the front line.

Quote from Wayne042: "The limit for a bow is 700lb/in (25# X 28 in draw). The limit for a crossbow is 600lb/in (typically 50# draw x 12 in draw). "
Are these the rules for bows and crossbows at FH???

They will be and would have made it in the last version of the rules but I was concentrating too much on alchemy rules. The 25# draw on bows will stay the same and crossbows will have the lb/inch max.

Here's an excerpt from the rules:
"A bow deals a base damage of two vorpal. Crossbows are a little more complicated. ...."

This is a mistake carry over from the old CARPS book. It needs to be fixed. See above

Also, with regard to the nocked/non-nocked issue, we put a slight knock point in the end of the shaft of the bolt, and married it to the string, then creaded a nock-loop for the pin to hold on to -- seemed to work very well. No misfires and, as I said, at their effective range, they were very accurate consistently.

I've seen designs like that on crossbows meant to shoot Tennis Balls. Do you have any pictures of your crossbow you can email me? I would be most interested in seeing detail of the tickler, the table, and your nock loop. If you would like to see a few more ideas for crossbows, check out these links:
http://www.combat-archery.com/crossbowinstr.htm
http://www.alcheminc.com/plan.gif

I really like the first design. Its simple to make and if you wrapped all of the prod rods together with tape it would look more in-period.

Should I post this in the "rule questions" forum at this point?

Just keep posting here

[Donovan Thynedar]

Wayne, since we seem to be running into outdated rules quite a bit, can we get an official rundown on crossbows and their function both in and out of game? It would go a long way to helping us with both design and planning for next event.

[Curufin]

I tend to agree with Robert, not just because I had a hand in creating the x-bows, but because they should have been more affective in combat.

Wayne- you said "They are only worthless the way fights currently break down at FH. If you had the fighters form and HOLD a line or wedge then you could fire from 20' with no problem and support the front line."

there are several problems with this: first, the front line isn't an easy thing to hold with any cohesion. However that is something that could be worked on. Another problem the line creates is the blocking of potential targets by the line. I don't believe there is a "Presice Shot" feat in final haven. While the fighters give the archers time to load a bow, they also prevent the archers from shooting. Catch-22.

second: most of us (especially Robert and myself) are much more affective in melee combat than from a distance: the ability to deal one vorpal every 10 to fifteen 15 seconds (due to loading and waiting for a shot) is nothing compared to the 2 to 7 damage we could each divvy out in melee combat. This isn't something we want to do though because we both love the idea of ranged weapons and changing it up. Plus we love and would love to see more diverse weapons on the field. It seemed that everyone had a sword and shield, or a staff/spear. (ofcorse Dallid had a mace) Again, we are all avid dice chuckers, and while we realize this isn't D&D, it is still a fantasy RPG/LARPG, and i would expect to see different weapons.

third: the damage that a x-bow and bow deals seems very low to me. While a high vorpal call may be more deadly to other PCs a vorpal call against most of the monsters that we fought is no better than a normal damage call. (I believe that the flesh golums had around 75LP with no armor) a master archer can charge for 30 seconds and deal 3 magic/vorpal, which can't kill anything except possibly a privledged 0 level PC, while a master empath can charge for thirty seconds and deal 15 magic. I agree that a mage should hand out more damage than an archer, but the archer should have more of a middle ground.

lastly: a person has to have a level in archer to use a x-bow or bow. it seems that anyone could fire a loaded x-bow; thats half the purpose of it. just point and pull the trigger. though it would take an archer to load it again.


if this sounds like a rant, i do apologize. these are just thoughts.

thanks

Ryan

[Peace420]

Peoples thoughts are what this board is all about.

The vorpal vs normal damage thing does make more of a difference vs PC but the difference is very substantial. And if the GM's get some phys reps I'm sure you'll see more armored NPC's.

[Nelkie]

Ryan,

You make a valid arguments. I can see crossbows being a free weapon, but a bow you would need skill in. But remeber you need to purchase your arrows from an archer. It could get costly.

As for damage
Bow - 1 vorpal
Cross - 1 vorpal
Heavy Cross bow - 2 Vorpal

You are right that the damage is low. But when you apply the master archer skills it cna get nasty.
Bow/Crossbow
1 vorpal base + 2 for charge up x 3 for magic arrow = 9 vorpal
Heavy Crossbow
2 vorpal + 2 for charge up x 3 for magic arrow = 12 vorpal

Now you can coat you arrows with posions or dung for disease and you can drop most everyone in game that is not a warrior.

That is why the base damage for crossbows is so low. It can become dangerous very fast.

Now there is a possiblity quality bows and crossbows might add extra damge to the base of the weapon. So you might be able to do
12 vorpal with a bow/crossbow
15 vorpal with a heavy crossbow.

I think that might being a master archer worth while!

[Curufin]

Aaron and GMs,


How does the true shot and magic arrow work? As i understand it, true shot adds damage to the total after a charge is made. Magic arrow multiplies the base damage by three. If these two skill can be used at once, a med x-bow (damage 1V) would multiply the base damage first which equals 3 magic/vorpal and then adds 1v or 2v for the true shot.

Med-- 1v X 3 + 1 or 2 = 4 or 5
Heavy-- 2v X 3 +1 or 2 = 7 or 8

not 9 to 12 magic vorpal

A grand maximum total of 5 or 8 magic/vorpal for med and heavy respectivly. Is this correct, and if so do the counts add? 40 sec total for 5 magic/vorpal on a medium x-bow. does taking damage interupt the count?

also- what is the cost of arrows mean. if, for one instance, a loaded x-bow is considered a "free" weapon, why would a character have an arrow cost? doesn't a 2nd level archer have unlimited arrows? he/she would be using their own arrows for you to fire.


thanks
Ryan

[Nelkie]

Ryan,

Good Questions.

True Shot adds to the base damage of a crossbow or bow. Magic arrow multiples the damage by three. And yes both skills can be used at once. That is how you can do 9 -12 vorpal with a missle weapon.

The counts do add together. 10 secs for +2 base damge for true shoot, and 30 sec for magic arrow= 40 secs to do max damage with a bow.
After you charge you can walk and run around, but can not use any other skill until you use your charge or you will lose your charge.

So a master archer can walk into battle and release an arrow that can do 9-12 vorpal damge and in 40 secs repeat.

Note an empath takes 30 secs to charge a boom up which does 15 magic, or 60 secs to do a 30 magic, but the empath can not move with the 30 magic. So archery can be very deadly.

Yes, if yuou take damge during the charge period you must start all over again.

The cost of an arrow means if you do not have 2nd level archery you must find someone in game who can sell your arrows or bolts when your supply is depleted.

[dier_cire]

Ryan,
Basically, before there were a bunch of changes to the damage system, it mattered where the multiply by three came into effect. Now it doesn't. Sure you could do the 30 count first, then the 10 and do less damage, but why would you want to? Perhaps if you really wanted magic damage?

All in all, you do have to look at each discipline's complete workup. Yes, crossbows suck when used by a starting character, but compare that to most any other discipline and it's the same.

Also, this system is very much not geared for uber characters that can do many things. It's generally someone is specialized for one thing, or not very good at multiple. And 1 vorpal is still nice vs. someone who is charging or has a charge (once the taking damage once charged thing is put into place).

[Trevor Owen]

The other thing that is being neglected with the x-bows here is that there is a huge advantage to being able to carry around a loaded weapon. You Can get off one or two shots with light x-bows and then drop them for melee and never have to worry about loading a weapon. With a bow it is much harder to carry around drawn back for twenty minutes or half an hour. With a small enough hand x-bow, you can even have it in a hip holster, already loaded and ready to go.

-Trevor

[Bob-Z (kabre)]

I think to some degree the "With a bow it is much harder to carry around drawn back for twenty minutes" statement is true, Trevor -- but only because a bow is much more cumbersome than a small xbow. You dont need to have the bow at full draw all the time to get an arrow off effectively and quickly. If you have an arrow nocked in the bow, its one fluid motion to raise the bow and draw, and doesn't take much more time than raising and aiming a xbow. And as discussed above, bows cycle arrows quicker than xbows (there is even a 5 second wait rule for every fire of an xbow).

[Trevor Owen]

But you will have a hard time having multiple loaded bows next to you, while you could have half-a-dozen loaded x-bows sitting next to you, with you positioned in a trench, in a tree, or behind a shield wall of your fellows. Then you get off shots much faster than a bow.

-Trevor