1 character or multiple...the debate continues

[Donmayo]

Well the 1 lv idea is pretty poor. Seriously. Last I checked I paid just as much to play as the next person. And last I checked you did make $ an issue when you offered people to pay w/o play and gain their lvs.


It seems to me that everyone keeps saying it is about accountability, but not about good and evil. Sorry, I'm just not buying what you are selling. It is ALL about what your second pc is/does. It has nothing to do with anything else. Every example listed is, " you should pay for doing this, you should get hunted for that..., don't play an evil pc if you don't want to sit in the woods..., reap what you sow..., take the good with the bad"... etc etc etc...

But when I mention playing more than one good pc, rather simply a change up for purposes of fun, I get... "that is not the issue" we are truly trying to promote accountability... but last I checked the only worries about accountability occur when hmm let me see, uhh.. you do something as one character that gets the other pc's pissed and wanting to kill you... So, the gist is if you play a good pc and an evil pc, you should not be allowed to switch. It has nothing to do with playing two good pcs.

Accountability = evil action = hunted= cannot switch.

If you want to make it a rule one per event else we will look for ways to screw over both your characters, then do that, and there by end the debate as people will only play one character.


BTW as a complete aside there was a whole section mentioned earlier about not killing? The whole stopping PvP… I have been under a mistaken belief that not only did you want pking you encouraged it!

[Annika]

Levels still make a big difference for allegience points

This generally only matters for humans... everyone else knows that a savage orc doesn't get squat.

as well as hero points

So now it's essentially one hero point every ten levels (when you do the math) as opposed to one every five? Not that big of a deterrent if you ask me. But frankly, i'm not playing for numbers and statistical rewards... I'm talking about those that do and that will do the number crunching. It's not that bad when it comes down to it.

So, the gist is if you play a good pc and an evil pc, you should not be allowed to switch. It has nothing to do with playing two good PCs.

That does seem to be other people's concerns, but if you re-read my post you'll see that most of the examples and problems I have have to do with continuity and there are multiple examples of a good guy skirting accountability or danger (i.e. Chris's first example about failing to simply rid Haven of a tyrant or my example about being in game as your good PC to fight off the bad PC coming for you).

Finally, I'm going to stop beating a dead horse, because even I can only say things three times before I hate hearing them. The way I'm reading these posts, at least Wayne and Chris seem to be in favor of the "1 PC per event" rule and no one has yet to argue that they're going to quit if this is changed (and that they'd even be worth it to save for the game). So keep things simple and make it 1 PC...

[McEwan]

Now for the discusion at hand.

To illistrate my point I will use myself as an exaple. When I enter a new system I tend use play one of two charicters I have had for decades depending on the genra. One is a pulp detective type (whom you are unlikely to meet), and the other is ye ol' dwarvin paladin type (I find the consept of "Lawful Stupid" irritating), thus McEwan.

Now after I have gotten the handle on a game I tend to want to broaden my RPing horizens a bit and once in a while take a break from charicters I know like the back of my hand, and maybe have some fun (please remember, for me, the prime reason to play games is to have fun).

So is there a good reason not to allow people to play more than one charicter? We are all here to have fun, right? So, maybe next event McEwan has a good reason not to be in town friday night and I want to introduce Chauncy to the town, to let everyone check him out and form an oppinion before I use him for an entire event, I have no intention of comming in and ganking the town and then saying "Hey, I'm McEwan now, you can't get me!". But on Saterday, being involved in the town a bit, I would like to bring in McEwan.

so what you all seam to be saying is that I can go club myself. Thanks. If you are going to allow it, why make it complicated? friday I play charicter x, then on Saterday I wake up put on the gear and go to the NPC camp and say today I am charicter y. Sunday? Well I have yet to see much RPing on Sunday, it's mostly packing and hanging out, which is fun.

As for the ablity to NPC I have another personal example. In the Silvertorn plot, after the first big fight, McEwan had evaded the army and was a good distance from any activity. I was the proud posseser of one LP and no armor and was having trust ussues with a large portion of the town (If you remember brian had labled the Griffin, including myself, havoc sowing traters, treatened the town with a orkish hoard, then durring the combat 'trustworthy" mages had desimated the town and McEwan's oldest friend was left to rot for hours while the "more important" members of the town were seen to). These to me seemed to be good reasons not to come back to town quickly. <shrug>

so after spending time face down in the woods I aproched the GMs (Todd) and stated what I intended to do, I then asked two questions
1) Is anyone tracking me?
2) Is there any way I can help?
Thus an NPC was born

Okay, I seemed to have tangented a bit ( nic-fits suck ) so I'll try to sum-up a bit.

A.) Multi charicters = good
B.) If you feel that some restriction is needed, fine, play char. x on Friday and char. y on Saterday
C.) NPCing? let the GMs know what you plan to do and see how you can help

In closing this all seams a bit of a reaction to the return of Pentag ( I may be wrong ) but, honestly if you all think that Brad is that much of a cheese weenie then why let him play? My impression is that he is a fairly good player. And if your wooried about others than the best protection against "Cheese Weasles" is generally peer pressure.

just my thoughts on the matter, take them as you like.

[GM_Chris]

How do we as GM's balance between rich and poor, good and bad.

Steve from my camp at least I am concerned for the good PC and the bad PC. It would bother me a ton if people switched to alts because pentag is in town because they fear dieing from him.


Chris

[Curufin]

That is a bit too hostile for just a matter of opinion.

I also agree that a person that is going to play two characters at an event absolutely has to be different in appearance. That means different make up (if applicable), different costume, and possibly different weapons and armor. It doesn't have to be emasculate...it just needs to be different. It is too damn confusing if you don’t.

If money is a problem....there are several solutions.

1) Get on JoAnn Fabrics' mailing list. Every month I get 40% coupons in the mail.
2) Talk to people. Several people here have extra costumes, weapons and armor. (I personally will begin work on my 3rd chainmail shirt this week). It’s possible that people will let you borrow stuff for an event. [Blondie: do you still have my chainmail coif?]
3) Spend $1.50 on one yard of fabric (any solid color) and cut it down the middle. Cut head holes in the middle of both of those pieces. Now you have two tabards.
4) Use black sweat pants/shirts. I fought the wraiths for two hours in nothing but pajama bottoms and a long underwear top.

Im sure there are many many more....but I have a date with the bar and I don’t intend on being late.

[GM_Chris]

I tend to agree with Curufin here.

Chris

[McEwan]

after having bummed a sig from a friend and rereading my post I find that Curufin is absolutely right. The post was more melodramatic than nessessary and I appologize for it.

Basically the point I was trying to make is that makeing a rule about when someone can or cannot bring in another charicter seems unnessessary and here is why as I see it.

A.) The biggest deterant to "cheese weasleing" will always be peer pressure.
B.) No matter what rule is made someone can and ussually will find a way around it.
C.) If a rule is nessassary, use Occtem's razor, simplest is best, either disallow changing charicters totley, or have it be at the beginning of the day. (no offence, but 12 o'clock doesn't excist in a world with no watches )

I shall try to keep myself in check in the future

[Dallid]

Yes, in the case of McEwan hiding out for awhile, of course he can go to NPC camp and ask to NPC. It's then up to the GMs to accept him as a temporary NPC or tell him to continue RPing his character, based on the circumstances.

In the case of introducing Chauncy, however, there's still the accountability factor. Say Chauncy enters town Friday night. An representative of Woodhold arrives that night, during which Chauncy irritates him to no end. This representative is pretty high up on the Woodhold ladder, and has his own assassin squad - which he promptly sics on Chauncy after leaving Haven. The NPCs set up to have the assassins come in on Saturday, but Chauncy's not there. Now the GMs must keep track of this plot for the next time Chauncy is played.

This goes the other way, too. Chauncy saves the representative's life, and the King of Woodhold wishes to present him with a reward on the morrow. Chauncy isn't an active character on Saturday, so not only does he not get the reward, but the King is pissed at having been blown off.

This senario might be addressed by players declaring which characters they're playing and when before the start of the event, but it still definitely lessens the repricussions for actions committed by a character that's only played for a short while.

Also, there's the situation where a situation absolutely, possitively requires the presence of a character not currently scheduled to be active. The player must then either throw the character schedule to the wind or the plot suffers.

Allowing multiple characters in a single event (or, more precisely, allowing charcaters to disapper during an event) just seems to add too much complication.

[McEwan]

In the case of introducing Chauncy, however, there's still the accountability factor. Say Chauncy enters town Friday night. An representative of Woodhold arrives that night, during which Chauncy irritates him to no end. This representative is pretty high up on the Woodhold ladder, and has his own assassin squad - which he promptly sics on Chauncy after leaving Haven. The NPCs set up to have the assassins come in on Saturday, but Chauncy's not there. Now the GMs must keep track of this plot for the next time Chauncy is played.

This goes the other way, too. Chauncy saves the representative's life, and the King of Woodhold wishes to present him with a reward on the morrow. Chauncy isn't an active character on Saturday, so not only does he not get the reward, but the King is pissed at having been blown off.

point taken

[Nelkie]

What is the difference of playing muliple charcters and people coming and going from an event? It happens all the time. I'm one of them that can't make it for an entire event. I know of many people who can only make it on Friday or maybe just on saturday. So how is this so different than playing multiple charcters? The points that Doug is making are good, but when looked as a whole does hold much merit to me (sorry Doug).

The rules that I posted before are the rules that are some being used right now. Maybe they should be tweaked alittle, but Mr Cornish uses them every well and there has not been many problems. As one of his guild mates I wish Eli was around some times and others I would like to have DOn Mayo around. It sucks some times, but it works out very well.

I say we either have only 1 character per event, or have a set time when a person can change characters, and only if an NPC clears it.

[GM_Chris]

Well there is another big issue with multiple characters that really does have to stop and that is the use of multiple characters per guild.

Or say using a charcter with alot of allegence to suppsort a guild then go play another character.

Also dont forget that once you switch you switch you cannot ever go back and use your previous character for anything.


Forexample if Doug switched characters and they really needed a healer he couldnt go ad switch back and have Dallid heal everyone.

I guess if we allow 1 time at an event where peopl can switch characters and only that 1 time maybe it would eliminate some issues.

Chris

[McEwan]

I can get behind a one time switch thingy. I do think most of the forseen problems can be solved by common sence on the player's part. If your charicter is involved with something, don't switch charicters. It's to bad that it doesn't seem that easy

[Sumder]

I just picked a bunch of the things suggested above and this is the idea I came up with.

A player could play one character per event. If your character needs to vanish in the middle of an event then a player could go to NPC camp, give a detaled description of why your character is leaving and where they're running off too. Then the player could help NPC during the rest of the event. That way the player can be made avalible if some one goes looking for the now missing character.

At the end of the event the GMs would decide if that character must be played during the next event, if some one is still pursuing them that is. Or, possibly, the GMs could rule that the run away character may not be played in the next event(s), maybe they ran into trouble, that's what happens when you don't have a well thought out plan. This would encourage people to think twice before they just run off to play a new character since you better have a good reason for leaving and you better have a good idea what your character will do to survive in the wild.

Also, if you have plans that MAY force your character to leave in a hurry it's always good to have your plans set before you have to leave. In other words, going to the GMs before hand and letting them know that for some reason or another your character might need to skip town. This allows you to predetermine a travel route, or escape route if so called for, so that your character has a better chance of survival in the wilds and may make yourself harder to track.

Here's a few examples.

Unicron is sick of being bullied by the cruel lord. He goes to NPC camp and tells the GMs that his character is afraid for his life becuase of the cruel lord and that he is going to sneak into the next trade caravan to the fishing village and stay at his cousins house for a few days. How ever, he then informs the GMs that he doesn't feel like NPC'n and is just going to go home. A week later Unicron gets an email from the GMs telling him that he must play the same char at the next event becuase the cruel lord's lapdogs have been looking for him and he wasn't the to resolve the issue.

Papasmurf just stole a ring from one of the players and some how they found out. Papasmurf has to make a quick get away and flees town. They go to NPC camp and tell the GMs they got caught stealing and fled town and are hiding in the woods. They gladly NPC for the rest of the event incase someone goes looking for them. However, the ring Papasmurf stole is worthless and once he skips town no one bothers looking for him. At the end of the event the GMs talk to Papasmurf and tell him that becuase he didn't have a very well put together plan he ran into trouble in the woods. Now, Papasmurf was kind enough to stick around, even though no one went looking for him, and he helped NPC. So the GMs make a compromise, he won't be able to start at the begining of next event but a little way into the event an NPC would bring him back into town, nearly dead after the NPC rescued him from some bears. Of corse Papasmurf could decide the heat is still a little too high for his char to come back all beat up at the next event so he could play a different character insted.

Barbie has the feeling she's being watched and thinks that some one may wish her harm. She goes to the NPC camp and tells the GMs she wants to leave town and that at night she's going to slip away and head to the fishing village, sticking to the roads but staying at the sides and taking cover anytime someone comes by. When she get's there she will look for work as an apprentace to a craftsman, even though she's a master craftsman she doesn't want to draw attention to herself and since she has spy as well she will be disguising herself. Once Barbie skips town she NPCs for the rest of the event and an hour before game off the GMs tell her that some one is looking for her and she needs to be ready. Barbie puts on her disguise and follows the GMs, one of which will be her employer. Some one enters the craftsman shop and speaks with the owner asking about a women. Mean while Barbie is sweeping in the back when the owner calls for her, what he knows her as anyway. Barbie comes out, not knowing that the man at the counter is actually looking for her. The owner asks Barbie if she's see a women, oddly enough he describs her. Barbie manages to keep her cool and replies with a simple, "No, sir." The man leaves and gives up his search. Since Barbie had been NPCing for a while now the other player really isn't sure if Barbie was her character or just some hired help. The GMs tell Barbie that she did such a good job that she has no restriction next event, she can play the same character or a different one.

[GM-Mike]

I think using something similar to the disguise skill could work okay (I know some don't want to hear that as it has been argued against but I think I might as well add a couple cents to the table).

We could allow one switch or at max two switches as long as you play one of two characters.

The switch would take one hour to perform, at which time the player would be an NPC, as Doug says, we could always use more of them.

That character would have an NPC status in the sense that people with the ability to track could find that person within the hour

The player would still play their character--no NPC would take over for that character

After the hour is up, it can be assumed the character successfully fled, but again, up until that point if players want to find you, then you will be found

You cannot retire a character during that hour

If something occurs at the end of an event that makes people want or need to find you, the hour will take place at the beginning of the next event you attend

If you are trying to use this to escape an NPC, you will be caught.

Both characters need resources to avoid poverty

Only one character advances levels and only one character's allegiance may be used. That character will be whichever character checks out.

[Donmayo]

In closing this all seams a bit of a reaction to the return of Pentag ( I may be wrong ) but, honestly if you all think that Brad is that much of a cheese weenie then why let him play? My impression is that he is a fairly good player. And if your wooried about others than the best protection against "Cheese Weasles" is generally peer pressure.

Thank you. That is all I wanted to say and then some. And for the record, Brad is a great rp'er. Still sucks monkey butts...