As Eric mentioned I cannot completely stop accountability.
In your situation if I had a person continually make alts to kill people I would have to kick them from the game.
The same situation can apply even to the one character per event or 1 at a time scenerio.
Chris
1 character or multiple...the debate continues
Moderator: Admin
RE
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
I still say that a "one pc per event" rule is the simplest way to meet the desire Chris has expressed to enforce accountability for PCs actions.
If a PC commits a crime or tales action taht creates the desire in an NPC or another PC to track and kill them, even if the offending Pc isnt played for some time, the fact that players/their PCs have always shown to have a long memory for who the bad guys are. If by some chance the Player/Pc forgets about it, oh well. It is no different than if they had forgotten that a secret activation word would prevent artifact X from killing the person that activated it.
And if the PC commits a crime and has to hide in the woods, again...oh well. Do as the PC would do and deal withthe consequences. If the players dont want to have to hide in the woods, dont design a PC that would take an action that would result in that.
No one is to blame for how other PCs and plot reacts to your PCs actions except you. No one forces a player to create a PC with personality traits of one sort or another. The player created it because they wanted to play it, therefore they should enjoy both the sorrows and defeats of the PC as much as the victories and joys. If they dont, they shouldnt be role playing. After all, that is what role playing IS, experiencing the lives of somone else( that you created) through the PCs eyes.
If a PC commits a crime or tales action taht creates the desire in an NPC or another PC to track and kill them, even if the offending Pc isnt played for some time, the fact that players/their PCs have always shown to have a long memory for who the bad guys are. If by some chance the Player/Pc forgets about it, oh well. It is no different than if they had forgotten that a secret activation word would prevent artifact X from killing the person that activated it.
And if the PC commits a crime and has to hide in the woods, again...oh well. Do as the PC would do and deal withthe consequences. If the players dont want to have to hide in the woods, dont design a PC that would take an action that would result in that.
No one is to blame for how other PCs and plot reacts to your PCs actions except you. No one forces a player to create a PC with personality traits of one sort or another. The player created it because they wanted to play it, therefore they should enjoy both the sorrows and defeats of the PC as much as the victories and joys. If they dont, they shouldnt be role playing. After all, that is what role playing IS, experiencing the lives of somone else( that you created) through the PCs eyes.
Grand High Chancellor of ROBUST UNPLEASANTNESS
...and the 11th commandment is:
"The stupid shall be punished!"
...and the 11th commandment is:
"The stupid shall be punished!"
RE
Brian that is truely your best post ever.
Chris
Chris
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
Only one PC per event.
No restrictions on who you can play the next following event.
No switching back and forth between PCing and NPCing.
No player should ever play a PC, aside from the person who created the PC.
No matter whether you're a sugar sweet character or evil prick bastard.
This creates the least amount of complications, is the fairest to all, and requires players to roleplay their characters fully. If you play someone hiding in the woods (for whatever reason) and you're whining that your character is bored, then you're not roleplaying them correctly. You should be meeting with people, taking action, plotting, scouting, spying, what have you.
And I agree with Chris. This isn't about good or evil. It's about shirking off situations in which your character should be forced to roleplay a situation. If you play a sugary sweet character, you might also find yourself fleeing in the woods from someone or something.
Finally, here is my suggestion, which I am going to be starting a separate thread on: "If you can't accurately represent it, you can't do it." If your character is in the woods, so are you. If your character is in the lab or in a cabin busy resurrecting someone, so are you.
I understand the dilemma in wanting to play multiple characters simply for the roleplaying aspect. But it creates too many problems and excuses.
No restrictions on who you can play the next following event.
No switching back and forth between PCing and NPCing.
No player should ever play a PC, aside from the person who created the PC.
No matter whether you're a sugar sweet character or evil prick bastard.
This creates the least amount of complications, is the fairest to all, and requires players to roleplay their characters fully. If you play someone hiding in the woods (for whatever reason) and you're whining that your character is bored, then you're not roleplaying them correctly. You should be meeting with people, taking action, plotting, scouting, spying, what have you.
And I agree with Chris. This isn't about good or evil. It's about shirking off situations in which your character should be forced to roleplay a situation. If you play a sugary sweet character, you might also find yourself fleeing in the woods from someone or something.
Finally, here is my suggestion, which I am going to be starting a separate thread on: "If you can't accurately represent it, you can't do it." If your character is in the woods, so are you. If your character is in the lab or in a cabin busy resurrecting someone, so are you.
I understand the dilemma in wanting to play multiple characters simply for the roleplaying aspect. But it creates too many problems and excuses.
RE
"No switching back and forth between PCing and NPCing."
Dissagree this is needed for disguise to work properly.
Chris
Dissagree this is needed for disguise to work properly.
Chris
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
RE
Doug you are too smart so we try to ignore you. 
LOL we should all call this the Doug rule of multiple characters.
Chris
LOL we should all call this the Doug rule of multiple characters.
Chris
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
Actually, Chris, this is only for how disguise works now. If the rule was re-written as I originally advocated, it would also follow the "If you can't accurately represent it, you can't do it" philosophy."No switching back and forth between PCing and NPCing."
Dissagree this is needed for disguise to work properly.
Obviously we can't change what an actual player looks like, but you can change the way in which they represent themselves playing a race and/or being in disguise. If a character wants to be in disguise, make them wear different clothes, style their hair differently, speak with a different accent, do something to signify they are someone different than their usual character. An orange sash does nothing but bring attention to the PC/NPC. Waiting a few hours (while helpful to the GM staff), doesn't really distinguish your PC or NPC either. Ultimately, when it comes down to it, players know who the other player was, and if they're going to metagame or cheat, there is nothing that any rule can do to stop it.
What you can do is require it to be represented in a way that is smooth and flowing for roleplay.
Get rid of orange sashes altogether.
Make PCs and NPCs represent the disguise (the time it takes them to actually change is the time it takes the character to actually change).
Make the PCs keep their disguise materials IN GAME somewhere and not in their cars.
And if there is any confusion the PC may tell other PCs/NPCs, "I do not appear to be XXX."
It works well in other systems and I think it could work very well in this system.
RE
Nope still wouldnt work.
Reason?
Because if no PC can switch and a PC disguises then EVERYONE knows OOG that they are disguised and frankly most people are not good enough quality RP'ers to seperate the OOG with the IG.
I have no issue with the representing thang, but the ability of the player to NPC makes the PC's not know OOG if the player is disguised or just NPC'ing allowing everyone to act normally.
Chris
Reason?
Because if no PC can switch and a PC disguises then EVERYONE knows OOG that they are disguised and frankly most people are not good enough quality RP'ers to seperate the OOG with the IG.
I have no issue with the representing thang, but the ability of the player to NPC makes the PC's not know OOG if the player is disguised or just NPC'ing allowing everyone to act normally.
Chris
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
Wait... how is it any different than if a PC changes clothes and comes in and interacts with people???
Frankly, if they appear differently (both in game and out of game), then no one knows if they're PCing or NPCing. The time they spend out of game and whether they actually NPC is totally irrelevant. The orange sash is what gets people thinking about PC and NPC lines and thus the metagaming might ensue.
By allowing a PC to just NPC then go in at some point and do whatever it is they want to do, you are actually preventing other PCs from several opportunities, including:
* recognizing the signature signet ring of balthazar
* noticing that this newcomer to town has the same exact magic item as a unique magic item owned by Kophorious
* finding the clothing items/disguising materials of the one who called himself "Jakar" -- who was he? where is he now?
If you employ the phys-repping policy that I advocate then if someone is searching Grok's cabin, they might just find the disguise she wears and then there are actual in game repercussions. By allowing people to look EXACTLY like their PC would look, but come in to Haven and say "you don't recognize me as Dallid, even though I'm wearing this big red tabard with a gold circle and a cross on it..." it breaks the fluidity of roleplaying and prevents the many other opportunities listed above.
This does not mean that a person has to go buy a WHOLE other costume, they can borrow from other PCs and from plot. (The general exception to the phys-repping different costumes thing are the player's footwear, unless those boots/shoes are magical.)
Frankly, if they appear differently (both in game and out of game), then no one knows if they're PCing or NPCing. The time they spend out of game and whether they actually NPC is totally irrelevant. The orange sash is what gets people thinking about PC and NPC lines and thus the metagaming might ensue.
By allowing a PC to just NPC then go in at some point and do whatever it is they want to do, you are actually preventing other PCs from several opportunities, including:
* recognizing the signature signet ring of balthazar
* noticing that this newcomer to town has the same exact magic item as a unique magic item owned by Kophorious
* finding the clothing items/disguising materials of the one who called himself "Jakar" -- who was he? where is he now?
If you employ the phys-repping policy that I advocate then if someone is searching Grok's cabin, they might just find the disguise she wears and then there are actual in game repercussions. By allowing people to look EXACTLY like their PC would look, but come in to Haven and say "you don't recognize me as Dallid, even though I'm wearing this big red tabard with a gold circle and a cross on it..." it breaks the fluidity of roleplaying and prevents the many other opportunities listed above.
This does not mean that a person has to go buy a WHOLE other costume, they can borrow from other PCs and from plot. (The general exception to the phys-repping different costumes thing are the player's footwear, unless those boots/shoes are magical.)
Finally, Chris, this is just plain sad. First, I disagree. I think the majority of players are great roleplayers or definitely have the capacity to be. It's time to start holding people accountable for their roleplaying and not letting them get away with shit like that. One of the worst things you can do is make rules for cheaters, worse than that is allowing people to metagame and not doing anything about it.Because if no PC can switch and a PC disguises then EVERYONE knows OOG that they are disguised and frankly most people are not good enough quality RP'ers to seperate the OOG with the IG.
RE
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
I am frustrated since I apparently have no way to express myself properly. I shall try again. Tanya please pay attention.
1) Tanya I completely agree with you.
2) Tanya I completely agree with you.
Now I really hope that makes alot of sence. I shall repeat once more though for clarification this time expanding.
3) Tanya I completely agree with you that every single PC should have to phys rep everything including their disguise in-game.
Now please tell me that this time you understand me.
Now that I have said all of that I dissagree with you on one point.
4) I do not agree with the statement that PC's should not be able to NPC during an event. This has NOTHING, and I shall repeat, nothing to do with physrepping. This has to do with a ton of situations, including disguise where I think it is appropriate and nessissary to allow players to NPC and then go back to playing their character.
Now incase that was confusing, because God know I am confusing. I completely agree that a player must have to phys rep their disguise.
5) Now lets say we implimented a rule saying "All PC's play the character they checked in with and you will not be able to NPC if you decide to PC." The problem is when a player uses the disguise skill and walks in EVERYONE, and I shall repeat, everyone who is not a retard knows that person is disguised. They know this because there is no other option. He/she is not allowed to NPC or bring in another character so logically he/she must be in disguise.
Now I shall repeat again incase I am confusing. I completely agree that the player should have to phys rep everything. We will call in the Tanya disguise policty of physrepping.
What I do not agree with is in the above example is that ALL people, save the retards, know the person is disguised OOG. Many of those people will not RP correctly. Oh they may think they are doing just a bang up job, but from a GM standpoint I have yet to see it. When i say I have yet to see it, I mean from everyone ever. (I wont name names except for myself)
Now lets say you do RP it correctly. Lets say you Tanya RP it perfectly and knock the guy out because you figured out they are disguised. then you torture him/her finding out yes they are disguised! Now do you really truely believe that since you screwed over this PC there will not be an air as to wether or not you metagamed the situation? Do you truely believe that I as a GM wont hear about it and that there wont be drama. Who do I give the bennifit of the doubt to? If we keep the one part of the disguise rules giving them the opportunity to NPC..then I can rule on the side of you.
Chris
I am frustrated since I apparently have no way to express myself properly. I shall try again. Tanya please pay attention.
1) Tanya I completely agree with you.
2) Tanya I completely agree with you.
Now I really hope that makes alot of sence. I shall repeat once more though for clarification this time expanding.
3) Tanya I completely agree with you that every single PC should have to phys rep everything including their disguise in-game.
Now please tell me that this time you understand me.
Now that I have said all of that I dissagree with you on one point.
4) I do not agree with the statement that PC's should not be able to NPC during an event. This has NOTHING, and I shall repeat, nothing to do with physrepping. This has to do with a ton of situations, including disguise where I think it is appropriate and nessissary to allow players to NPC and then go back to playing their character.
Now incase that was confusing, because God know I am confusing. I completely agree that a player must have to phys rep their disguise.
5) Now lets say we implimented a rule saying "All PC's play the character they checked in with and you will not be able to NPC if you decide to PC." The problem is when a player uses the disguise skill and walks in EVERYONE, and I shall repeat, everyone who is not a retard knows that person is disguised. They know this because there is no other option. He/she is not allowed to NPC or bring in another character so logically he/she must be in disguise.
Now I shall repeat again incase I am confusing. I completely agree that the player should have to phys rep everything. We will call in the Tanya disguise policty of physrepping.
What I do not agree with is in the above example is that ALL people, save the retards, know the person is disguised OOG. Many of those people will not RP correctly. Oh they may think they are doing just a bang up job, but from a GM standpoint I have yet to see it. When i say I have yet to see it, I mean from everyone ever. (I wont name names except for myself)
Now lets say you do RP it correctly. Lets say you Tanya RP it perfectly and knock the guy out because you figured out they are disguised. then you torture him/her finding out yes they are disguised! Now do you really truely believe that since you screwed over this PC there will not be an air as to wether or not you metagamed the situation? Do you truely believe that I as a GM wont hear about it and that there wont be drama. Who do I give the bennifit of the doubt to? If we keep the one part of the disguise rules giving them the opportunity to NPC..then I can rule on the side of you.
Chris
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
This seems to be where we disagree. Is the disguise skill a bad one? Yes. It's just as bad as a flying skill. But if you're going to keep it in the game, then you need to trust in your players and their roleplaying abilities.I think the majority of players are great roleplayers or definitely have the capacity to be. It's time to start holding people accountable for their roleplaying and not letting them get away with shit like that.
Will people argue it? Of course. It doesn't mean it's a bad policy, since players love to argue about everything (including me).
I still disagree with allowing players to flop back and forth between PCing and NPCing without extraordinary circumstances or specific plot need.
We get into the same ol' same ol' accountability argument. If Pentag kills a bunch of people, then gets to disguise himself, he's now out of game for 1 - 5 hours NPCing for you. Making him "unchasable" with an actual Pentag phys-rep IN GAME.
Additionally, how about if I say that Grok is going to disguise herself up to fight against an NPC. Grok lets everyone in town know where she will be and that she's disguising herself up.
Is she now accessible with present policy? That's a grey area.
Is she accessible (as she should be) if Tonia is actually roleplaying Grok getting into the disguise? Yes.
I'm not retarded Chris, I understood you perfectly and that you generally agreed. I'm advocating differently about the NPCing policy.
It's your game. Do what you want with it. But this topic and the other thread posted are both meant to be "Rule Suggestions." The current system is problematic and creates more grief than is needed.
Nothing will repel whiners and cheese-dicks. But many things can be done to make for a more fluid roleplaying environment for the rest of us.
RE
Well I can agree that perhaps diguise is a bad skill, but in your example pentag does come back into game at some point. You also have the ability to find out he is not who he seems to be.
I can definitly see a reason to remove disguise, but if disguise is going to stay in the game then the way it is set up is the only way it can work.
Chris
I can definitly see a reason to remove disguise, but if disguise is going to stay in the game then the way it is set up is the only way it can work.
Chris
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
Arthos
Ok, I have not read all the post on the muliple character roles, but this is how I view the playing of muliple characters.
1. You can ony switch character Saturday Morning, Saturday Game break, SUnday Morning.
2. You can only play 2 characters an event
3. Each character gets 2 levels of experience for each evetn they play
4. Both characters get to use there allgenece points to support a guild, but can not be of the same guild.
5. If both characters are part of a house only one characters allgence points support a house, not both.
6. Both characters must have suffcient resources to survie
7. Both characters count as a body in a guild as long as they are not part of the same guild.
8. Upon switching a charcter you must report to NPC camp and let them know what you have been up to. If the NPC's feel you have comitted an act that other PC's want to hunt you down for, than you must contuine to play your pc until the next change over time. This stops a person from killing/stealing from another PC and switching characters. This will give the PC's a chance to find the evil bastard in game before they run off.
9. The character that is not being played can not be used, talked with, found, grant any benifits, etc.. until they come back into game. The person is off int he woods, in the guild hall studing, help the peaents, etc.... One will have to wait until the next time they can switch characters to talk with them in game.
What do people thinK??
1. You can ony switch character Saturday Morning, Saturday Game break, SUnday Morning.
2. You can only play 2 characters an event
3. Each character gets 2 levels of experience for each evetn they play
4. Both characters get to use there allgenece points to support a guild, but can not be of the same guild.
5. If both characters are part of a house only one characters allgence points support a house, not both.
6. Both characters must have suffcient resources to survie
7. Both characters count as a body in a guild as long as they are not part of the same guild.
8. Upon switching a charcter you must report to NPC camp and let them know what you have been up to. If the NPC's feel you have comitted an act that other PC's want to hunt you down for, than you must contuine to play your pc until the next change over time. This stops a person from killing/stealing from another PC and switching characters. This will give the PC's a chance to find the evil bastard in game before they run off.
9. The character that is not being played can not be used, talked with, found, grant any benifits, etc.. until they come back into game. The person is off int he woods, in the guild hall studing, help the peaents, etc.... One will have to wait until the next time they can switch characters to talk with them in game.
What do people thinK??
My Thoughts
Aaron
Aaron