Seige Weapons

[Nelkie]

I'll bring it, but I know your potatoe trebashae will out distance my catapult. It should be a hoot.

[dier_cire]

I'm making the ballista if we're allowed to shoot Aaron! Legal shot speed of 300fps right?

[WayneO42]

I am going to address several concerns regarding seige weapons in this post. First of all, there are some questions as to wether or not they should even be allowed on the field:

...does not fit into a story line that describes a post-apocalyptic environment where people are scraping resources together to survive let alone build superfluous field artillery....

I believe that seige weapons fit well into the story line. First of all, the world is post cataclysmic but there are records remaining (thus the sage) so finding out how to build a seige weapon is very plausabile. As for the resources involved, historically, most seige engines were built on-site by the troops laying seige. This tells me that the resources needed may have been significant but readily available. This gathering of readily available resources can be represented as part of the time it takes to build a seige weapon.

Also, from practical experience gained from actually building a seige engine, the materials involved were not all that much. It was time intensive. Our engine was about a 1/3 scale Counterweight Trebuchet with a 4:1 arm ratio and 150 lbs counterweight. It took 12 8' 2x4s, a 1/2"x36" steel bar, some fastners, and a quarter sheet of plywood to make. Wood is readily available in Haven, it just takes time to cut. Most period illustrations of trebuchets suggest construction from rounded/half finished timber. I would put the steel resources spent at about 2 for nails, strapping, release hooks, etc.

Does anyone really think the use of one or even two such things would have any significant effect when attacked by 1000 troops that can see the weapon?

This is obviously an opinion that can not be changed, only tested. The limitations of the phys-rep will prove you right or wrong, we dont need to make a ruling to do it. If we make sure there is a somewhat realistic load time for the machine then if it is impractical on the battle field and is destroyed in every battle, it wont take long before they are not rebuilt.

Does anyone realize that siege weapons are for attacking (sieging) walled structures and NOT for defending wall less towns?

True, but in the world of Phantera there are lots of barriers other than physical walls. Aaron had a good idea with surrounding them with pit traps. There may be a ritual that puts up a barrier. The PCs may build a wall (Next Project for you Aaron ). The PCs may be asked to take a keep from a group of beastmen. Lots of possibilities and, as I said above, if its not protected properly, it will be over run and destroyed. Let the limitations of the phys-rep and sound mechanics speak not some arbitrary GM ruling. If it is unsafe then it will be removed.

As a GM, I believe that siege weapons are well within the scope of the game and as long as the phys-rep is safe and looks good, I see no reason to disclude them from the field outright.

Another question brought up was wether or not a discipline would be needed to fire the weapon.

Sure, anyone can pick up a bow and arrow and shoot, but can anyone fire a catapult?

I believe engineers ran the catapults of old, so maybe a seige weapon team has to include a craftsman?

Historical evidence shows that siege engine Teams would frequently be local non-combatants (women, children, older men) assisting in the siege or in the defense of their town but I agree that the craftsman should be present as part of the team to direct the efforts. This is actually illustrated well in the pictures below.

The crews that used them were drilled in trajectory calculation, moving the beast as rapid as possible to change line of fire, reloading, et cetera.

I dont know how accurate this staement is. According to "Weapons" by Edwin Tunis, 1954, "A Roman Legion probably employed 10 of the larger stone throwing "Ballista" engines, one for each Cohort, while one smaller "Scorpion Catapult" arrow bolt shooter would be assigned to each of the Legion's 59 Centuries.". Thats alot of effort to make if an entire crew had to be heavily trained to operate such an engine and had to struggle with movement and aim. Granted, I am sure some were trained in trajectory but I have to believe that in period, they were in the far minority. Having fired a ballista and a trebuchet, I can tell you that you do a hell of a lot less math to figure out trajectory than you do trial and error. Also, based on the majority of period examples, large seige engines were not mobile. They were moved side to side a bit but not quickly. Medium and small engines that were mobile were built to be so and designed to be rotated and moved quickly. For example:








Ok...Finally, lets talk game Mechanics:

I also feel the suggestion that a team, of up to four people, is needed for them to be do significant damage is a good one, and realistic.

100% agree. I think one of the team has to be a 4th level craftsman to represent the engineering and co-ordination of effort involved in firing one.

I think the load time should be based on the projectile. No load time for grape shot and 1 minute load time for boulders. I think the damage should be around 2-5 crush for grapeshot and 15 crush for a boulder. I think this damage could be upped based on the number of people required to operate the engine

[Kidwynn]

K, now Wayne IG involving mechanics.

Who can build such an item?

I'm thinking it woudl take a master craftsman along with a sage so that they can show them the blue prints or drawings of such a weapon to be constructed.

How long would it take said craftsman to construct such a weapon?

Figured about time to start asking these questions too.

-Julie

[GM_Chris]

ACK ACK

As you can see wayne is very pro seige engines.

This board is only for discussion please for the love of god do not think anything here is a ruling.

Plus wayne needs to convince 2 other people that it is a good idea and 5 of us have to be involved in making the mechanics.

So basically in no way will there be seige rules for the next event. Anything discussed in terms of rules here are just tat discussion.



Chris

[dier_cire]

Though I have no idea whether this was done with catapults or not, I don know that once the age of the cannon came about, low angle shots were used to tear through entire lines of troops, which I think a catapult with the stop mounted far enough forward could replicate to a lesser degree, though still capable of rolling through multiple attackers.

You do realize Aaron is going to want to hurl the lash gas trap next?

[Bob-Z (kabre)]

well.... we can argue, but none of us are arms/armor historians.... KIDDING!!!!!!!!!

[Curufin]

Hahahahaah.......Wayne........

[Nelkie]

Eric, that is not a bad idea.

I was thinking of a spell that would infuse a bolder to edxploded upon impact doing lash damage. So instead of doing 15 crush it would do 15 lash. Vince as a rubber dog toy ball that plays back a recorded message upopn an impact. Cover it in foam and you have a method of letting everyone know the damage call from the bolder!

I have many ideas, but I want to talk to the NPC first and see if they even want to enterain the ideas or not. Right now the answer is no, but more talk on the off session will be forth coming!

I'm almost done building the catapult. It can fling packets about 50ft now and has a 20 ft arc.

[WayneO42]

well.... we can argue, but none of us are arms/armor historians.... KIDDING!!!!!!!!!

Theres a difference between just throwing out "Historical Fact" and backing it up with quotes and illustrations from ACTUAL arms/armour historians.

[WayneO42]

Though I have no idea whether this was done with catapults or not, I don know that once the age of the cannon came about, low angle shots were used to tear through entire lines of troops, which I think a catapult with the stop mounted far enough forward could replicate to a lesser degree, though still capable of rolling through multiple attackers.

You can easily lower the trajectory on a trebuchet by bending the release hook forward. Colin and I almost took out the neighbor's motorhome by doing it