Jack of All Trades and Master skills.

[Vivac]

I am curious on how it works because the book doesnt say much. I read that in order to purchase advanced skills in a path you must have two basics of that path first.

Ex. To buy Awaken from Healer, I must first purchase two basic Healer abilities, so how about First Aid and Healing.
Right?
So now how does buying Master Abilities work?

I read a post on the Winter Haven boards that said you had to have at least 4 advanced in that path and then you can purchase a master skill for 60 points.

So far from what I've played around with making builds and stuff it seems that Jack is a really underpowered path. Maybe I'm just missing something about it, but In my opinion you are better off just going Sage. All those 7 basics you get to choose can be mimicked, and you can just choose a master path ability with Power of the Ancients instead of wasting all your Jack basics and advanced for that one master path ability. Not to mention, sages start with two more Essence, and come with no armor restrictions. Where Jack has to spend a basic slot and advanced slot to lower your armor restriction once, and then again.

Is Jack of all Trades a Path worth playing?

[Ark]

jack of all trades cannot by itself learn master skills, it can only learn basic and advanced skill. the term "jack of all trades, master of none" being quite literal here.

the way you get around that and attempt to get master skills is using jack of all trades in combination with everyone's ability to simply purchase path skills. everyone can buy path skills at a cost of 20 per basic, 40 per advanced, and 60 per master. and that you must purchase the core path skills of the preceding ranks to be able to get the advanced or master skills.

you also DONT get to pick what master skills you want, you must purchase them IN ORDER that they appear, you also cannot purchase or through jack of all trades acquire path swap out skill.

example: say you want the master empath skill "cause sleep" you would have to get it like so

20 - sense magic
20 - concentrate magic
20 - essence bolt
20 - essence transfer

40 - greater sense magic
40 - administer
40 - channel
40 - drain

60 - gather essence
60 - cause sleep

now how jack of all trades helps is you could pick all 4 of the advanced skills as your jack of all trades skills allowing you to purchase the master skills at 60 points per skill without having to go through all the previous skills.

and yes as you noted its really not worth it, its not going to be better trying really hard to copy a path but not be that path, nothing is going to be better then an empath at being an empath then an empath

jack of all trades is only the best at doing what it says on the box, picking up a buttload of different basic and advanced skills. not grabbing master skills, if you want a paths master skills then you should be that path. that said there are actually quite a few jack of all trades running around. and now with what were crutch skills like parry being available in disciplines its probably in a pretty good spot. I would still never play one, but its there.

[Kiel Reid]

Just let Jack of all Trades go 6 basic, 4 advanced, Mimic and 1 Master skill of their choice.

[Ark]

I would agree with Kiel on at least 1 master skill, the lack of any is simply a huge negative. however I would disagree on mimic as that is such a definitive sage skill and Jack has plenty of versatility and basic options already.

[Isho]

jack of all trades was really good when it was the only thing going. Now sage with it's great swap outs and path of the ancients is better. (my opinion only.)

[Zydana]

I'm one that likes to understand the reasoning behind things, so I offer a bit of back story to those who are newer - this is of course from my perspective as a player, and don't have more behind the scenes insight.

Some time ago, there was question as to the role of the Sage. Some saw it as the Jack of All Trades path because it pulled a few skills from other paths (like knock out, and you could mimic, and you could wear heavy armor and be more combat-y) and thus was the hybrid/swiss army knife of the paths. Others saw it as the wise-man/shaman/seer/profit of the paths because of it's ability to bestow buffs/blessings/boons and with recall and research, could look into the future/get insights/consult with the stars, etc.

Shortly after, the new path, Jack of All Trades, was introduced with the Final Haven expansion, Heroes an Villains.

I thought it was neat concept, but felt it was a bit lack luster and I was uninterested (I hadn't come up with a character concept that would have fit Jack better than another path).

I agree that Jack needs to be revisited - either tweak it, do away with it, or maybe make it into a "real" path.

Another option is to clearly separate the utilitarian aspects from the information gathering/buff aspects of Sage and put them into two distinct paths (this would probably not be popular).

[Vivac]

I think what hurts Jack most right now is that the best skills in most paths are swap outs. And the only swap outs available to Jack are armor proficiency and weapon proficiencies.

Maybe if they don't rework the 7 Basics and 5 Advanced skills they could allow the Jack to choose from swap outs too. With the current basic swap outs its really unappealing to try and play a Jack. Basically you go either all information gathering skills, or really sub par in any other kind of character you make. This is from a build stand point, not roleplaying though.

I dont think it would hurt the game if Jacks could get Restore Essence or Invigorate. Any path can pick up first aid and healing, why not let the Jack of all trades have the option of healing combat reflexes or essence?

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think Jack would be a better path in the updated rule book if it could pick up Basic Swap Outs too.

Advanced Swap Outs are a maybe but honestly I think that the Advanced and Master Swap Out skills are what really makes the paths unique so the Jack shouldnt be able to pick from those. Maybe it can have two unique Jack of all trades swap out skills that aren't just armor proficiency :b

[Ark]

swap outs are PURPOSEFULLY made swap outs so jack of all trades and sage cannot get them, that is done deliberately and by design and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Sage can pick one advanced in place of one if its own master as a master level skill and has access to mimic. neither of those skills have to be taken (in fact its hard to take both, these days all the path skills are much more even in their effectiveness and its getting harder to choose in MOST cases, there are still some obvious swap outs.) and reflect the idea that a sage could research and have enough knowledge of another path to be able to perform an action or two from it, but is in no way as good as the dedicated path. and I think sage is finally in a good spot after years of neglect. (the knockout at advanced was hysterically bad) and has a fantastic synergy behind class idea and skill design that I would love to see in more classes.

Jack of all trades is only good if you play it like its designed by picking the widest range of skills from as many paths as possible to cover as many bases as you can, and rides a slippery balance delta between underpowered and over powered. because when altering jack you have to look at the balance of every path skill, possible master skill placement and combinations, as well as disciplines. is it a little weak now? I think so. but I also feel that is a better approach then the possibility of a character having dodge, dive for cover, parry, a good damage steroid, self healing, other utility, and able to wear full heavy armor in one build. and yes that possible with just 1-2 alterations with jack of all trades or other classes.

so like I said, is it currently underpowered? a little bit yes from a munchkin perspective. but if it is to be adjusted it must be done super carefully.

[Vivac]

Sage get Power of the Ancients as a master that lets them choose any other non swap out Master ability, not advanced. And I feel that allowing Jack to have access to Decipher Script, Forgery, Restore Essence, Slick, Invigorate, Durable components, Sense Essence, and Imbue Essence is NOT going to break the game.

The problem with Jack in the current system is simply that the rest of the paths got a major power upgrade with swap out skills and new master skills and Jack didn't. The path just cant keep up with the others.

I imagine that Jack of all Trades wasn't thought too much of when rewriting rules. Jack doesnt even have its own place with the rest of the paths in the book, its tucked away in a paragraph.

I think they should remake it into this

Basic
Basic
Basic
Basic

Basic
Basic
Advanced
Advanced

Advanced
Advanced
Advanced
Master

That way theres 6 basics to allow three different disciplines to possibly choose Advanced skills from, as well as 5 advanced and 1 master.

I think they should be able to pick from any basic path skill swap outs included, and then pick non swap out advanced skills and then 1 master non swap out skill. Restrict them to medium and remove the swap out Jack skills that up your armor restrictions.

I feel that this would make Jack of all Trades on par in strength to other paths and actually worth playing.

[Ark]

you are correct on power of the ancients I was thinking about jack of all trades still sorry about that. and its not just about mechanically breaking the game, skills are often made swap outs based on RP, the swap out skills are often considered defining skills of there path, so much so that only that path can do them. (not sage or jack) and the "well swap outs are not good so I don't see the problem" argument goes both ways, if they are not good then why does jack or sage need access to them Slick is actually incredibly powerful and one of the best basic combat skills in the game if you know what you are doing.

don't get me wrong I am all for a Jack of all trades tweaking, the outline you made above I agree with at this time, the path does need its own section and not be tucked away, etc.

but when I privately made complaints about Jack of all Trades to GM's I was informed that A) the numbers did not support my opinions, we do have quite a few jack of all trades playing. and B) it was not meant to be powerful but to fill a niche, one that it and ONLY it does.

like I said, I agree it needs tweaking, but carefully.

[Vivac]

I feel that Jack could easily RP being able to use basic swap outs like Restore Essence or Slick. Invigorate and any of the martial training or weapon style abilities too. I could see a Jack being able to sense essence, which is a basic Magus ability. A mage hunter could, so why not let Jack take it as basic?

[Ark]

I would have to look over all the swap outs and try and find breaks, problems, or issues with them on a case by case basis. Because as you pointed out skills like sense essence don't seem like an issue, at that point its just short end of the stick in that something had to be a swap out and it got the short straw.

however in cases like restore essence you have to be really careful. in a game already suffering from too many game stops potentially doubling +/- the amount of people with restore essence means an increased amount of magus spells going off. and as I pointed out slick can be really powerful because its one of the only skills in the game that allows you to kite.

as it stands now I would not be against jack having access to use shield or duel wield, however I'm personally irritated with how common these skills are to the point if you fight in any way shape or form, you have two weapons or a shield. back in the day using two weapons was in ONE discipline restricted to ONE lifestyle and had light armor, and using a shield effectively required once again ONE specific discipline. now there all over the place, so much so that they have stacking effects. (BLARGGGG)

BTW I applaud your in depth look at Jack of all Trades, breakdowns, examples, and suggestions for everything. it really makes for great discussions and I recommend starting threads for anything else you think of they really do help the game and the GM's (that goes for everyone else)

[GM-Phil]

I will simply state "Jack of all Trades" was made due to player desire for a Path like it.

it was designed as it is, and on purpose.

Since it's inception it went from the one of the top Paths played (new toy) - to almost non-existent


Personally I would just scrap the Path.

[Ark]

Personally I would just scrap the Path.

I would agree with that, would make it much more simple to balance path skills at the very least.