An Apology and a little rumor control

[taymoonlight]

Just a quick thought as an observer. FH keeps getting compared woth LOTR. #1 lotr is epic beyond the scope of fh, as far as ive seen so far. You cant really compare the two. #2 Armies are, in fact, very important to the lotr story. An army brings about the events that allow Mary and pipin to escape, an army of ents closes isengard and traps saruman, not two but 3 armies fight for helms deep, a whole slew of armies converge at tir minas, and last but not least, its an army that keeps sarons eye off of sam and frodo. So, if fh were to use armies like lotr, heroes (pcs) would lead armies to assist other heroes

[GM_Chris]

Yep it has everything to do with fh eco system. My example is nearly all there is to the eco system.

[Ark]

Sup Tay, the points is those armies are not under the control of the main heroes. (except in rare and extreme circumstances) we would consider the armies in Lotro NPC controlled. an example would be treeman has an army, rodrick has an army. when we need an army for some big task like fighting the elves we would go and ask for help from these people.
the reason I want this so bad is simply a point I feel is very important. keeping the power one person can amass small. if the amount of power one individual PC can amass is small then more teamwork between PC's is required.

that's another problem I have with the eco system, the power comes from the territories, the farms, the NPC's. I think the eco power should be more focused on PC's. right now PC's are just the figurehead for NPC assets and power. and I REALLY don't like that.

Chris. . .your example is an overly simplified trap. as I refuse to play rogues I cannot disarm it, so I will simply just not walk into it ^_^

[GM_Chris]

Really its not a trap or overly simplified...just RP and then ask the GM's to help you with mechanics..same advice I tell anyone new to larping

[Ark]

Chris I have NO DOUBT you would help me or anyone if we came up to you and asked for help. you would set up a new territory and handle all the RP to make sure we had a good time, and make it all feel simple, fluid, and in game.

that is not my point. I don't like the core concept behind the eco system of relying on the NPC's for everything. I don't really have a problem with the way the GM's handle the eco system. I have a problem with the eco system itself.

[GM_Chris]

Im confused because you dont rely on NPC's for everything. PC's are responsible for creating buildings, deciding what territories produce, trade, moral, ect....Now unlike a lot of games we do have a heavy amount of NPC interaction but that is nessessary to create plots

[Kaylan Chargeender]

Your NPC interaction as plot hooks and bad gys isnt anymore saturated than any other larp. Its more saturated, many times more so, with how much they affect and carry influence in the PCs survival and politics.

[Ark]

Your NPC interaction as plot hooks and bad gys isnt anymore saturated than any other larp. Its more saturated, many times more so, with how much they affect the carry influence in the PCs survival and politics.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS THIS THIS

[GM-Phil]

I not sure how I see this as a bad thing? I have not played many LARPS, but the ones I have been to that had little to no NPC interaction felt stale, boring and lifeless.

Without a world to adventure in, and people to meet just what am I adventuring for.. I come to a LARP for RP primarily, and combat second. If I just wanted to adventure, get loot and not interact with the world I would stay home and play an MMO, or maybe try to get a tabletop game together (although that has NPC interaction too ).

I guess what I am asking is what do you want out of a LARP?

[Alinar]

Right. I like to feel a part of a world. For that to happen the world (NPCs)must have a significant impact on my character. It must act on me, not just react to me.

[Ark]

positive reinforcement always trumps negative, and the "help us or starve" gets. . .old, real fast.

I don't come to FH just to fight, I actually don't end up going on a lot of combat plots because I actually don't like fighting, I just happen to be good at it. I like the world, I like the setting, and I like all the effort that goes into plots. Everyone comes to FH to live action role play, you don't have to force us to with the threat of starving. I would much rather help some village out of the goodness of my heart and not get anything in return other then to see them be happy and prosper. then be forced to help a village so I can get resources so I don't starve. . .it takes all the point out of the good deed.

what I want is the option to be good or bad.

A village is under attack by monsters

current) they create food for us so we must save them or we starve (decision made, we are not good, simply protecting our interest)

what I want) they do nothing for us, we have no reason to help. what will we do?


the eco system and the role NPC's play is actually very linier. we have to keep them alive, we have to save them, we are not choosing we are simply playing our part, the fact that our actions are "good" is simply a product of the part we are playing, the whole thing feels very forced and devoid of choice.

[GM-Taki]

I’ve got a few points to make here.

First, let’s be sure we’re keeping the capacity of the economic system separate from the current in-game economy. In our continued analysis of the system we need to acknowledge that the economic dynamics that have developed in Haven after years of PC-based roleplay and development do NOT necessarily represent how the system itself functions under different in-game circumstances. Korrigan could not manage the Crown’s territories, his own territories and business, or his military without the cooperation of numerous PC’s. The fact that the teamwork is happening without controversy does not mean that it’s not teamwork. I’d say Korrigan’s in-game friendships are far, far more important than his wealth or military points when it comes to estimating his in-game power. The same is true for any character in this system, and I like that.

Second, possibility of starving does force people to have some interaction with the economic system if they want to avoid mechanical penalties. The same is true for special and magical items or anything else that requires upkeep. The point to consider here is where to balance the real with the fantastic. Some have expressed an interest in a more fantastic conception of the economy wherein the heroes gear, trinkets and supplies are taken care of off-stage and not a factor in their exploits. Others prefer the more realistic version, and the FH game setting of post-cataclysm desperation has played upon the struggle to survive both physically and economically.

Some people have enjoyed the economic side of the struggle for survival, and some have found it bothersome, but there is validity to both sides of the argument. Worrying about the minutia and having to interact with NPC’s does take time and effort that might be spent on other endeavors, but it adds to the dynamic nature of the world. Actions have consequences regardless of the economic system, but a more interconnected and interactive system adds dimensions and ramifications unknown to less integrated systems.
In my mind, the key is that the inclusion of the more realistic economic elements INCREASES the type of stories that can be told.

The threat of starving is the same thing as the threat of death through combat in that it facilitates a sense of risk. Some people would rather not play in a world where their character has the risk of death, just as some would rather play without the risk of starving, but both exist to add to the drama of the game and allow us to tell a wide variety of stories. The imposition of consequences doesn’t diminish the morality play that occurs every time we’re asked for help, because everyone that asks us for help does not play a crucial role in our self-interest. (I seriously cannot remember the last time “help us or starve” came up in a plot.) When someone who does play a role in our self-interest asks us for help, I’d say it ADDS to the dilemma – especially if there are conflicting priorities or rival groups in play at any given moment. Consequences don’t force us or take away choice, they put our choices in context and make them more dramatic. Want to whack the guy who grows your corn? You can do it, but the game world isn’t going to ignore it. That makes it more, not less, interesting in my estimation.

As for the military, mustering troops to bring military points in-game for use against PC’s is both difficult and prohibitively expensive. The vast majority of the actions available within the military system take place off stage and work in concert with the plots designed by the GM staff. My military protects the town, but they also are tasked with delivering messages and looking after the land. What does that mean? That means that we get more warning when a threat comes in because the Cavaliers are patrolling the borders. We have fewer twisted creatures roaming randomly because the Rangers are watching for oddities and taking care of the animal population. The Messengers are acting as heralds but also keeping us informed of issues in the villages so we have the chance to deal with things before they become a problem. THAT is what the military system can do when combined with a GM staff who is willing to work with a player who works with them. Military can protect economic holdings, but it does not effectively translate into in-game might in any other way. In fact, I have yet to see a scenario in FH in which the military has played anything other than a supporting role.

Looking at the economy as a whole, it’s no longer difficult to create a character who is entirely self-sufficient. In the coin economy, most veteran characters who choose to do so can generate more than enough personal income to cover their survival expenses. Those who prioritize their economic skills can walk into game with money and resources to spare without ever talking to an NPC.

Meanwhile, the rules put forward in the 2012 version offer a complex and dynamic way to integrate the economic system into the game world. While the current FH setting has many of the resources controlled by the Crown, I’ve already detailed how that was the result of historical in-game developments and not the inevitable result of the economic mechanics. There are at least four separate PC groups who control territories, and I know for certain that several new territories came into game in the last couple years. We’ve got a wide spectrum of economic options available to us in-game and a selection of skills that augment those options.

Regardless, I’m always willing to hear other ideas. Ark, if you’ve got a different vision, let us have it. What would your ideal economic / military system look like?

[Ark]

Regardless, I’m always willing to hear other ideas. Ark, if you’ve got a different vision, let us have it. What would your ideal economic / military system look like?

This post comes after a talk with Chris as well

I know that the stability that we currently have in game is in no small part thanks to you Taki. I talked with Chris a bit and I have some disagreements about FH on a core level that are just not going to change and I have to accept them. on the eco system though, my thoughts are as follows.

-I don't want it to disappear, there should be one.

-I want it to be completely voluntary and players should be allowed to not deal with it if they so wish. hopefully measures will be taken in the future to make this more possible.

-my perception is skewed because I have seen the amount of GM work it requires, and when I think about that I just cringe at the thought of the eco system. the perception of the eco system needs to seem much more fluid and easy to get into, and im trying to figure out how to do that.


stay classy -Ark

[Kaylan Chargeender]

Wed May 29, 2013 6:25 pm by Ark
-I want it to be completely voluntary and players should be allowed to not deal with it if they so wish. hopefully measures will be taken in the future to make this more possible.

To make this more to the liking of those that think like Ark, which for the record I refuse to do even should he ever ACTUALY be right , i think if there was more ccess to food and hide form critters killed to PCs with skills that would allow such (wilderness survival lets say), and more ways to get steel(having a craftsman melt down 2 or 4 swords/armor/shields to get a single steel), and adding ways to gather mystic(maybe critters that use it for nesting that PCs could hunt) or other valuables like gems or prescious metal ores( found in the same paradigm as the herb system, and occasionally in mines)....so that if a PC doesnt want to deal with holdings, they can still work to prosperity.

Just a thought

[GM_Chris]

I can't believe that so many people focused on the economy instead of the absolute humor of the first part of the original post!
At the event it was said that I tend to attract bad press. Then there are people talking about how I said this mean thing, and then it turned out to not even be me who said it, and then what was said turned out to be a joke.
I have not stopped laughing for a like a week! As a very smart person once told me. "Chris It is not paranoia when its true"