An Apology and a little rumor control

[GM-Mike]

It has come to my attention that a comment made at the game on meeting regarding Christen had offended some people. First of all, it was I who made the comment and not Chris, as there was apparently some confusion as to who said what. It was a comment made in jest, a comment made in front of her husband, and a comment I would have made in front of her. I in no way meant any offense by it. I consider Christen a friend and would never say anything to intentionally hurt her, and it saddens me to think that I may have done so. So Christen I apologize. I will refrain from making comments, jokes or otherwise about players or people who are not present, unless of course that person is Glowski, as his robust unpleasantness surely makes him fair game.

I have also heard from a number of people about some concerns over the amount of coin one of the players has. It is a large sum of coin acquired through role playing (to be interpreted as: ANYONE could have gotten it with a similar proposal), in order to start a bank. The intention was always to modulate the meaning of that coin through resource management. After all, people cannot eat, wear, or otherwise use coin for anything to survive with. If there isn't enough resources to go around, it doesn't matter how many coins a person has. Now, since the coin was given, some rules have changed and some of the original intention got lost in translation so of course we will look at what is going on and control that which we can control on our end. That said, his true power is the fact that he controls the majority of the resources as well as the coin, which had nothing to do with our end of things.

Anyway, we will look at this and try and bring it under control as best we can. You can always return to a bartering system, rendering the coin useless, if you so choose. My point is, there are always things that can be done.

Please continue to let us or our ombudsman know of any concerns that you may have. We will continue to work hard to address these concerns.

Thanks,

Mike

[Wyrmwrath]

wow..i would cry because I was segregated and singled out...if I had a soul and there for feelings. Instead I kicked a baby seal...kinda the same thing ...i think.




....and...we ALL know his true power is that he is a shape shifted Illithid...so yeah there is that.

[Kiel Reid]

So lets talk about the coin thing...

Coin is not completely useless. Coin buys Military. No resources required.

If I attack someones territory with my military they will know exactly who it is before my military even attacks. There is no mechanical way to avoid this. Them they can move all of their troops into that area to defend the territory.

"John, let's attack those villagers and steal their land!"
"Can't do that Bob...Gotta wait till their reinforcements arrive in 2 months and then we'll attack."
"But they're right there!"
"Nope. Gotta wait. Until then just go break all their crates of food. Don't take any of it though. Just destroy it. Also make sure to tell one of their soldiers who hired us so they can try and have him killed this moon. "

Let's say I take a different approach. Maybe I can go talk to the villagers and plead my case. Well unfortunately I need to talk to Jared to do that and that is almost impossible. Not his fault, he's just busy. However if you do get Jared he will play it realistically. You need to offer an incentive other than flowery words which means you need to convince these people who are well fed and defended. This means resources. You can't compete in this area against a territory holder. Resources do not come into the game as treasure to the degree in which in comes in from the political side. This is because it would break the system. So this is a dead end.

Matt has tried. My guild has tried. It was fruitless and frustrating.

So now I'm down to my last option. I have to try and kill the other guy. That is the only viable option I have left. Now you can say that it's the PC's fault for letting it happen. To a degree that is true. We definitely sold him all the items for worthless bits of metal. Maybe because upkeeping them is too expensive if you are not a territory holder. I don't want to do that. Too much IG and OOG crap that goes with that. That's assuming I'm even successful. I would need at least 5 additional people with me to stand a chance.

To be honest I don't think that was the intention of the political system. However it has evolved into this big cumbersome thing that is a source of frustration for many, far more than those who find it fun and beneficial.

That's my opinion anyway.

[GM-Mike]

As I freely admitted (though between the lines in my post above, coin has become more meaningful than originally intended, which is why we are looking at trying to solve this issue. I understand the frustration and we are working to fix it. It won't be as fast as some people like, I'm sure, but we are looking into it.

[GM-Taki]

So, since I’m part of this whole thing, I’ll just weigh in here instead of being referenced in the third person. Coin is not the issue here – all coin does is increase the portability of wealth and facilitate trade by providing a neutral medium of exchange. Mike correctly points out the real issue – I control the vast majority of the Resources in-game. The vast majority of them belong to the Crown / Town / “Haven”, but I control them. Because this isn’t the first time this has come up, and because I’ve previously heard allegations ranging from favoritism to conspiracy to explain my in-game power, I’m just going to tell you a story.

I’m pulling back the curtain to let you, my fellow players, know how this all happened and that the system isn’t necessarily the problem. The GM’s (specifically Jared) do an admirable job of managing the economy, and the way things are now isn’t because coin is the major medium of exchange. I’m spelling all of this out to demonstrate that the GM’s are doing the best they can and the issues are primarily in-game. I’ll ask you, as players, not to meta-game this, since I’m telling you this for OOG reasons. It’s also not going to be short.

I’ll tell you how Korrigan has been as successful as he has been, and you may not like it, but it’s the truth. Everything I’ve got at this point I’ve achieved by doing three things: Playing cooperatively (against the world) instead of playing competitively (against the players), being patient and thinking ahead.

I’ve watched people play this game competitively for better than a decade now, and it’s never really gotten anyone anywhere. It’ll get you killed, generate a bunch of animosity, and stir up OOG drama, but I have yet to see anyone really get ahead gunning for the other PC’s. There is WAY more opportunity out there in the wide world than there is in the pockets of the townspeople, and you can get at it without making everyone want to murder you (well, any more than people want to kill anyone who is successful in-game).

Being patient means several things – it means waiting until everyone else has checked-in to go through your massive amount of crap. It means taking the time to submit in-between events forms that could be turned into paperback novels. It also means patiently trusting in the GM’s to take care of something you need to have addressed. It may mean waiting months or years for something, but it also means that while waiting you make polite reminders instead of whining or being obnoxious. Patience is about playing the long game, and when combined with thinking ahead, it can bring about amazing results.

When Korrigan walked into town he had absolutely nothing. I knew we were all going to Far Reach, and I remember seeing a post where Travis and Joe talked about building the House of Chance (thereby claiming the Keep at Rota Kiwan) and I thought “Hmmm… I wonder if anyone else has claimed the other building?” I sent Mike a PM and asked if anyone had, and if they hadn’t I asked if my character could claim it and work up a backstory. Mike said that no one had asked about it yet and if I wanted it, I was free to stake a claim. I did so, and thus the Tipsy Traveler was born.

Now, anyone could have walked up and murdered me or challenged that claim in-game, but no one did. Once I established myself there I had a base of operations, and with the help of a couple other PC’s, I was soon doing a brisk business in trade. We bought potions, crafted items, and set about the goal of creating an in-game economy.

I’m sure someone might have whacked Korrigan just for the Inn, but he just so happened to come into a massive ass-kicking golem right around the time his business took off. Stumpy, by the way, fell into Korrigan’s lap by complete accident. There was a puzzle floating round one event and it bounced around multiple people in the Inn for several hours on Saturday afternoon. Esmerelda was working on it, but when she got called off for a conversation she tossed it at Korrigan as she left. I tinkered with it for a few minutes, set it down to fight something, and came back a while later to mess with it again. When I picked it up the second time I saw the bottom of the puzzle was involved in solving it and figured it out a few minutes later. Solving that puzzle gave me control of Stumpy, and being strategic (thinking ahead!) with him allowed me to keep him around this whole time.

When plans started being made to attack Sylvan’dar, the Elven capital which was rumored to have never fallen to outside forces, I started speculating (thinking ahead!). “Hmmm,” I said, “I wonder if the Elves might have some nifty stuff squirreled away somewhere?” I did a little poking around, and so when the battle was over and the rest of the town was gleefully rolling the corpses of common soldiers, I snuck off and raided their central vault. Anybody could have done it… hell, anybody could have followed me if they weren’t so busy divvying up the coin from the battle, but they didn’t and I hit the jackpot.

One of the items I got there was the Master Portal Codex, which has saved our asses (and my business) more than once. Another item I found there was a set of channeling bracers. I’m not an empath, but I remembered that I knew an empath who was both a witch hunter AND had an axe that granted immunity to magic. We each traded something we didn’t need for something we really liked.

I also spared Prince Anwyr’s life that day, and that began a friendship that also proved important. Prince Anwyr was a good guy, and I knew that if he was King of the Elves, Haven would have an ally instead of an enemy in Sylvan’dar (thinking ahead!). I also knew that preventing a civil war among the Elves would be important and that the current King was acting somewhat erratically.

It just so happened that Korrigan landed the killing blow on the old Elven King at the battle of Haven, and so after decapitating him and finishing off the troops outside, Korrigan grabbed Prince Anwyr and created a little revisionist history. In the new version of events, Korrigan wounded the old King and Prince Anwyr struck his brother down. As the old King fell a great darkness passed out of his body, suggesting that his erratic behavior was the result of some dark influence. The elves had an explanation for the old King’s behavior and a new, pure, legitimate King in Anwyr. Haven had a new ally, and Korrigan had friend on the throne who owed him a life debt AND his crown. Needless to say, that’s been good for business.

(Where did Steamy come from, you ask? We were attacked by a massive mechanical man when we re-took Haven. Korrigan was able to cut it because his strikes could pierce its metal skin (vorpal). Instead of just killing it, I opted to cut it open (thinking ahead!). A little gnome fell out and ran off, and as soon as he did, the machine collapsed to the ground. I had Stumpy hide it in an outbuilding until I figured out how to make it work. When I got him up and running a few events later, Steamy was born.)

Business might have continued on just being “good”, but I saw a chance to make it great (thinking ahead!). I had realized previously that IF we were successful in retaking Haven, there MIGHT be an opportunity to become the new Bank, since long-distance trade with Caledonia (a country that already didn’t like outsiders) would be very, very difficult.

I also feared that Caledonia, which was in the midst of a crisis with King Galen, could cut us off at any time… and since we had pockets full of their coin – which, last I checked, you can’t eat – we’d be screwed. The same thing might happen if we were successful in retaking Haven and we all showed up with coin demanding resources to cart back to our homeland. If they shut us out, we’d be screwed. If they let us trade in all our coin, they’d be screwed because we’d empty the resources out of their already strapped kingdom. That kind of hit is akin to a run on a Bank, and Korrigan (who was, believe it or not, trained to be a lord at one point – that’ll be important later) could recognize that.

Knowing this, Korrigan approached Caledonia nearly a year before we retook Haven and started laying the groundwork for their eventual deal (thinking ahead!). Caledonia would provide Korrigan with some start-up funds and resources (over time, not all at once) in exchange for preventing a run on their treasury. Korrigan would use those funds to mint a new currency and send a bunch of that currency back to Caledonia, plus some extra to repay them for the initial start-up funding. Korrigan would then, over time, cycle the Caledonian coin out of the Haven economy and replace it with his own, keeping the Caledonian coin. Caledonia benefitted by avoiding a run on their treasury as well as getting a new foreign currency reserve and a new trading partner. Korrigan got the backing he needed to turn the Tipsy Traveler into a full Bank and Mint, and the Tipsy Traveler got a foreign currency reserve in Caledonian coin. Knowing that protecting his assets would be crucial to both his own security and the value of Haven’s coin, Korrigan used some of the assets he acquired in Sylvan’dar to construct his mystical nigh-impervious vault.

(Foreign currency reserves are crucial for stabilizing the value of an issued currency against shocks and runs, which was one of the reasons Caledonia agreed to the deal. I don’t expect everyone to know that, and I wouldn’t expect their characters to know it either… unless, perhaps, your character had been trained to be the lord of an economic province at some point in his or her past. See, I told you it was important.)

As the sole in-game Bank and Mint in a coin-based economy, The Tipsy Traveler began handling all the resources that came in from the Territories. Korrigan made a bit of money off the exchange, but (as Zeira will attest) the profit there is not outrageous. The real money is in Territory ownership, and that’s where Korrigan turned his attentions next. Thinking ahead (!), Korrigan hired regional advisors to keep him informed of any new economic contacts, and over the course of several events, he gained inroads into several possible territories. Using a combination of In-game roleplaying and significant investment, he has turned those contacts into new Territories. It’s taken YEARS, but he’s finally done it.

Korrigan’s territories aren’t the issue, though. There are other territories out there, and folks like the Dwarves, the Red Tear and Woodhaven have been benefitting from them. No, the issue is something else entirely, and it requires a bit of backstory.

Korrigan originally backed Esmerelda because she was looking after the people and NOT part of the exchange between Atrum and the House of Chance, but later he realized that she had the potential to bring everyone together. Why? Because Esmerelda was soft, and she generally used soft power to get her way when she needed something. Haven had proven that it would fight tooth and nail against anyone who tried to lead by force or with strength, but the Havenites were willing to let Esmerelda mother them, and as such she became Queen.

Her becoming Queen wasn’t pivotal to the economy, but it heralded the most crucial event in the economic history of Haven. With the collapse of all rivals and Haven united behind a single leader, the “Crown” came into unchallenged possession of what were at the time ALL of the productive territories in Haven. Fionna and Korrigan took over – initially as Regent and Steward, now as King and Queen, but the core of the issue is the fact that the Crown controls most of the incoming resources in-game and spends them on the people. Korrigan is wealthy, but he inherited control of a system that had already been centralized. Just like before, the Tipsy Traveler handles the resources, but now Korrigan manages the town’s territories as well as his own. The town’s resources are turned into coin and used to pay for the upkeep on the land, Haven’s Army, and to feed and supply Haven’s heroes. There are a lot of expenses, so the town barely squeaks by most events. The Tipsy Traveler’s profits and resources are used to fund Korrigan’s Military (The Cavaliers, Messengers, Rangers, etc.), upkeep his territories, maintain the items in the Traveler’s stores, employ townsfolk, pay regional advisors, and invest in things like the new buildings he constructed for Haven.

The OOG “system” has plenty of opportunities for others to get ahead, but the current IG climate of unification and accord puts heavy penalties on anyone who tries to take from the town. In addition, the three largest military forces in-game are used almost exclusively for defense and adventurers tend to find toys that require resources faster than they acquire the resources their toys require.

Combine all the IG stuff with the fact that the development of other territories has been slow-going, the fact that FH and WH aren’t quite on the same page in terms of their economic systems, and the unfortunate state of Jared’s ridiculous overtime (not to mention the fortunate state of his new baby) and it’s easy to see why it might APPEAR that players don’t have options or that the system is broken. We do have options, lots of them, and making use of them may require a bit of forethought… but trust me, it’s worth it.

Lastly, and to address the issue of OOG economic balance, I know that part of the reason for the slow growth of new territories is the fact that the GM’s don’t want to flood the economy with stuff. Haven has, until recently, been a scarce land of limited productivity. When you take a look at the amount of stuff that comes in though treasure, personal income AND the territories, there is a great deal of stuff coming into game during any given event. Maintaining that feeling of scarcity has been important, but the GM’s have always said that the game world is a living thing. Over the last few years we’ve finally been able to make the investments, improvements and progress necessary to usher in something of a renaissance for the Kingdom of Haven. Korrigan’s advisers tell him that we’re on the cusp of a new kind of prosperity, and I think that will offer those who are hungry for economic growth the kind of opportunities they desire.

[Kayla]

-snip-

And this is why I LARP.

[GM-Mike]

Thanks for all of that. We did make mistakes along the way as well, though, by mismanaging resource production by not accounting for greater populations of NPC characters and by not increasing resource cost of trained NPC characters. I also think coin factors too much into military. Anyway, there's a bunch of little things that we can do to balance the system back out a little bit, but yeah, it's good to have the in game rationale as to how things got to where they are. We never discourage creativity or strategic planning and try to reward accordingly, no matter who you are. Interacting with NPC's can yield great results. There's often benefits to be found, even in unexpected places.

[GM_Chris]

Another point on the economy is it forces a person to hire players to manage the fields to reduce corruption. This means that Korrigan must have some people he has hired who have area under their control. This means that there is split loyalty between Korrigan the crown, and the people who manage the territories under Korrigan. My question is has any of these people attempted to flex their power, or do they acquiesces everything to Korrigan at game on?

[GM_Chris]

On the cumbersome and only fun for a few comment let me say I agree that the system has become cumbersome and thus a few logistical changes need to be made. I am happy that the system is fun for some people. We have several aspects of our game that are only fun for a few people like combat and role-playing. Unlike combat and role-playing if you do not like the political/economic system then you do not have to participate. Heck the worse case and I mean worse case scenario is that you are starving for the event and as Kiel has shown by example it is really not much of a detriment to have a character who is starving.

[Marcus]

My question is has any of these people attempted to flex their power, or do they acquiesces everything to Korrigan at game on?

Remember though, part of that can be put down to simple, happy teamwork, rather than simply "submitting" to Korrigan as you make it sound. Some of us are simply hoping to take on a role as part of a team towards a common goal, rather than trying to bargain for personal power all the time. (even if a guilty little part of that is also so that we don't feel like set dressing as we would be otherwise).

Being part of a successful system, however small a part, beats bashing your head against the wall on your own.

I can fuly admit that I have had some sore feelings myself over the years, as sometimes it feels as if I need to write a veritable novel of between-events actions, which I find incredibly hard to do because I am, frankly a horrible writer. Lest I feel I will see nothing of the sort of things I see other players experiencing upon interacting with the world, and in turn, having it interact back.

[GM_Chris]

Sorry my word choice was poor. My thought behind those words was picturing a scenario were a person was unhappy while maintaining a position to do something

[Marcus]

Well, seeing as working for the common good of the Kingdom of Haven is paid back by having most, if not all, of that character's needs met (as if everyone else doesn't get that as well), I feel that believing there's a possibility that a holding manager would feel like a slave a little hard to swallow.

[GM_Chris]

I would tend to agree with you Marcus, but apparently according to Kiel most hate the political system, and there was a need for Mike to apologize on behalf of the GM's for a monetary inconsistency. Then that apology morphed into David feeling he had to post on the issue. If everyone is getting their needs met then why the drama?

Now with all that said I am a little confused. I may be reading into what your saying, problem with text and all, but you responded to my apology by saying it was ridiculous? I am just trying to understand where the frustration lies. To be more clear, if everyone is working toward the common goal, and everyone is getting their needs met, and everyone hates the political system, then why would anyone care that David enjoys writing a book of in between event data, hangs out at the inn most of the time in order to manage the economics,, and spends the first 3 hours of every event to handle the economics?

If someone wants help on how to knock David down and get all his kewl lewt without having to kill him, I will be happy to offer suggestions. Be warned you won't be able to do it alone, and will you be a better economics leader than Korigan

A little off topic, but you definitely do NOT have to write a book to receive interaction from the world. Last event someone had about a 4 word in between event activity and I wrote a 3 event plot based on the request.

[Marcus]

PM sent for clarification!

[Wyrmwrath]

First...see I told ya... a shape shifted Illithid.

Second, Even without Taki's explanation, saying he has what he has in game due to a conspiracy or favoritism, only does a few things.
It states you think Taki in the staff are such ethic less dirt bags they have to cheat at a LARP to have fun and make themselves "feel good", implies Taki is so suave he has the plot team fooled with his charms because they are ninnies ( I mean he was cute in that dress and those heels, but not THAT cute), and ENTIRELY discounts Taki's native intellect. He may be a bastard ( I mean not my level of bastard, since he isn't even generally unpleasant let alone robustly so...) but he is one hella shrewd bastard. I fully think he could have taken Vince/Corbyn if Taki was as eager to see the good in people at his core.
Are there things that suck IG about Korrigan being the FH version of a Rockefeller , yup. Just like there are things that suck about the REAL Rockefeller's having all the goodies in the real world. Wait...does that mean that shit happen in FH just like it often does in the REAL WORLD?!?!?! Yes kiddies it does, roll with it. Its called role playing. Play how your PC would react to such things IN GAME. Its what the players are SUPPOSED to be there for.

That all being said, the only small detraction I have to anything is:

Tue May 21, 2013 5:11 pm by GM_Chris
Another point on the economy is it forces a person to hire players to manage the fields to reduce corruption. This means that Korrigan must have some people he has hired who have area under their control. This means that there is split loyalty between Korrigan the crown, and the people who manage the territories under Korrigan. My question is has any of these people attempted to flex their power, or do they acquiesces everything to Korrigan at game on?

In truth, allowing Korrigan to have PCs sign a piece of paper, and there by having the NPCs take resources go to Korrigan instead of the PC makes it pointless to have the holding manager a economic system requirement. It also makes it to Korrigan doesn't have to negotiate to "pay" anyone for the work they do as a manager. If they wont sign he just keeps asking until enough people agree. Add the in between event accounting system to make sure no one is skimming and it really comes down to modern economic skills an knowledge being allowed to distort what i think the system was created to do. Taki just happens to have the right real life career path to do just that.
Keep in mind, that's Brian's views, Kaylan didn't have an issue signing the "contract", because Kaylan just wouldn't.
Personally i think the economic system is broken because its so focused on FORCING everyone to all get along, or starve rather than most every other LARP making the PCs pool resources to make things like haven come to pass from what they get in the standard adventuring method of earning.

I dont think MOST Pcs hate the economic system, they either just arent into that kinda RP add on or hate they are a poly sci podling like Taki.
I also dont think MOST PCs are working twords the greater good, I just think the ones that would be naughty are finding they cant and it irks them Ity takes a clever ninja to work in Haven and not get caught.

FYI (since I know its not what you mean)...comments like :

Unlike combat and role-playing if you do not like the political/economic system then you do not have to participate.

Is often just heard as "do it or starve" in a system that doesnt offer other income options THAT ARE WRITTEN INTO THE GAME like the current economic system is. Such a system is great for a PC Noble/crimelord type of concept. It is a dead end for a lone wolf type.


Oh and Taki...your a Bastage. Just in case it sounded like I liked ya too much...