Heraldry

Post by **GM_Chris** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 2:35 pm

Thieves guild did not get caught. The mark of the secret societies were never shown for others to see. Forexample they had a mark on the upper shoulder.

Personally if I was in any society, especially a secret one, I would have some kind of mark so dont have some idiot walk in and claim to be part of my house when they were not.

-Chris

Peace420 · Post by **Peace420** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 2:37 pm

BTW Wayne those books are awesome, Atrum is sort of the antithesis or more accurately a less moral version of Jon Snow.

Peace420 · Post by **Peace420** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 2:39 pm

The point is if only the members know then you don't have some idiot walk in and say he's part of your org. As soon as that happens he gets ganked because the members know that you don't go around saying I'm part of this org.

Dallid · Post by **Dallid** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 3:59 pm

Right, a member must show proof of guild membership. The problem with a membership item, such as a belt hanger, a mask, whatever, is that it can be stolen, with the thief then able to infiltrate the guild.

That's why an evil guild, wise to the ways of evil, will mark their members in a fashion that cannot be removed or stolen. Such tattoos also act as a brand - the guild now owns the bearer. The brand cannot be removed - the bearer cannot leave the guild. Should they try, the tattoo becomes a deathmark.

Heh heh. That brings up the possibility of 'evil guild' powers - such as 'Track Member' One guild member can always track down any other. Should one be captured, the rest of the guild can come down on the captors and retrieve their own. Should a guild member try to leave the guild - others can track him down and kill him.

Eilonwy · Post by **Eilonwy** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 4:19 pm

Sorry to digress again, but I just had to say that the only people in Caledonia who should where puke green are the pansies who can't hold their ale.

As for the evil guilds marking or not marking themselves, as long as there is some way to know other members from phonies, such as the reciting the list of names, code phrases, or things that sound like gibberish to others, I think they should get benefits, even without a tattoo. The more devious the means, the better.....

Dallid · Post by **Dallid** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 4:31 pm

For the most part, it's a moot point, as the guilds are small enough that everyone knows everyone else by name and face.

But there IS that pesky disguise skill.

Post by **WayneO42** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 8:53 pm

Eilonwy wrote:As for the evil guilds marking or not marking themselves, as long as there is some way to know other members from phonies, such as the reciting the list of names, code phrases, or things that sound like gibberish to others, I think they should get benefits, even without a tattoo. The more devious the means, the better.....

Agreed. For secret type guilds, we can always come up with an alternative. Maybe an assasin type guild has a "Calling card" they leave at the scene or a way they leave the body. A spy guild may have a secret code word etc. Heraldry wouldn't work for everyone but I think we can be flexable and come up with alternatives for particular situations.

In the above examples, they achieve the same effect as the heraldry. When some newbie evil bastard comes into town and hears about the assasins that always leave a black arrow clutched in the victems right hand they may think "Wow, thats so evil. I gotta find these guys". Instant member attraction and instant plot for a newbie.

Onyksi Rin'oviryn · Post by **Onyksi Rin'oviryn** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 9:26 pm

But that's how serial killers get caught.

I'm completely against this whole evil heraldry thing. If I was a completely evil bastard, I wouldn't want anything identifying who I am or with what I'm affiliated. Besides, if you make the kill differently each time, you're harder to trace.

Peace420 · Post by **Peace420** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:18 am

Finally a voice of reason, people keep talking about making yourself unique. If you're doing something shady you don't want anyone to have any way to trace you, no black feathers no certain body positioning, no scars, no tattoos you want to blend in as best as possible with little or no distinguishing patterns or marks. We do have a key word that means it's time for killin but that's about it. Yeah some of those things may be cool for a book or movie or for role play sake but not very practical in the long run. Anything that will help to get you caught is just a bad idea. Imagine what the Constable is gonna say when he finds a bunch of black feathers in your room if everyone that has died has had a black feather in their hand.

As far as knowing each other in the guild there can be a phrase and response but that can be copied even easier than a tattoo or a scar. Like my example of the black tear, once it's known what the identifier is it can easily be copied, the best way to handle it in my opinion is that only one person can put you in or out of said org and that is the only person that needs to know everyone in the org. This can lead to 2 members working on the same thing or against each other at times but to me it's much more preferable than getting caught.

As for knowing phonies, if they come to you talking about the guild they are a phony. Simple, you do not talk about fight club. Now just like the movie it may happen, unlike the movie whoever talked has just sealed the persons death if they come around asking.

Tonia Glowski · Post by **Tonia Glowski** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:36 am

Why would this necessarily have to be "equal" in terms of everyone getting an ability from the same thing?

If heraldry "skills" or "abilities" are about people feeling a sense of unity and pride in a group, with *glaring* reminders in the form of house colors, symbols, favors and so forth, then if you choose not to have an identifying symbol or device, you don't get the advantage(s). If a thief or even thieving guild chooses not to participate, so be it. There will be individuals who won't reap rewards from this either -- and likely also because they're roleplaying a character concept.

The idea is a good one, especially considering the basic mechanics of the allegiance system. It may or may not work well in Edam, but I think it'd work well at FH. Just as long as the system overall is balanced.

Onyksi Rin'oviryn · Post by **Onyksi Rin'oviryn** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 11:58 am

It may be a good idea to give certain rewards for it, but nobody evil (and smart) is going to want to do it. So in essence, you're giving rewards to people who choose to play good characters and punishing those who wish to play evil ones. I'm not sure I'm so down with that. If people want to wear the same colors or even put brands on all of each other's heads to feel a sense of unity, then rock on to them. But I don't think there should be special rewards given for it. Besides, why should skill bonuses be handed out for good roleplaying?

Nelkie · Post by **Nelkie** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 12:02 pm

The bonus's are not that great for a guild to be concerned about having them or not. The idea of heradly is great and the guild of light is working on our standard and colors.
The guild bonus for herdaly will only help new charcters coming that want to form a guild or demi-human guild.
Rember you need at least 3 people to start a guild and an extra person needs to join to rise to the next level up +3 people. So a level 4 guild needs to have 6 people in it. iF not, it dies.

How would it work with the guilds that are in a house. Would the people wear their guild and house colors? or would the house colors take prestence? I real do not want to wear my blue and gold guild colors and than have to wear a pale green house shirt. The colors could clash.

As for having an evil guild, it can be done and still have the bonus's. It is simple, have some type of sign, password, magicial mark, that changes each event. Even if the other PC's get the password it will change by the next event. You still have your secerts and be very hard to track. Or have a test that will frighten or kill non-guild members. There is many non-marking ways to have have guild heradly and not be overt about it.

Peace420 · Post by **Peace420** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:09 pm

Uhm something like a code word that means it's time for killin.

Eilonwy · Post by **Eilonwy** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:27 pm

As for having an evil guild, it can be done and still have the bonus's. It is simple, have some type of sign, password, magicial mark, that changes each event. Even if the other PC's get the password it will change by the next event. You still have your secerts and be very hard to track. Or have a test that will frighten or kill non-guild members. There is many non-marking ways to have have guild heradly and not be overt about it.

This is for the most part what I meant. I have never advocated playing arrogantly stupid bad guys who are always likely to get caught. Too typical and boring. However, if you can come up with something devious enough, it just shows off your prowess and intelligence when you don't get caught. Especially if you keep the guild methods fluid...not static.

There will be individuals who won't reap rewards from this either -- and likely also because they're roleplaying a character concept

Unfortunately for a bonus system, this is way too true. Most of the characters I like to play are loners (Eilonwy being an exception...kind of). Loners can still add to society in good (or bad

) ways but would get burned for not joining a guild. Often, they already feel the roleplaying repercussions of not being a part of anything so why take away a mechanical bonus also. If an "evil" guild cannot seem to shake the authorities, of course they will drop any sort of mark or code to survive. These types will get burned for good roleplaying and intelligence.

Hmmm....I'm not sure what a good solution is here. I liked the idea of bonus' only when it was fair to the group as a whole but it looks like there are some issues....If someone can patch it, great, otherwise, maybe drop it and come up with something else entirely. Unfortunately, I'm blanking for the moment so go ahead and beat me for not providing a solution....

(Adding my bit of (non) sense.)

Post by **WayneO42** » Wed Oct 08, 2003 6:36 pm

The mechanic isnt really about rewarding good guilds over evil. Its about representing the mechanics of running a public guild over a secret society. I agree with most things that have been said about running an evil organization. If you dont want to get caught, then you have no means of identifing your members and, like Erik said, each member should only know the identity of the member who brought them in. Now, lets look at the dynamics of this set up.

As a character in this type of organization, you take orders from a shadow you have never met, you have no way of directly seeing the effects of your loyalty, and you really dont know who to trust. This is very cool from a role-playing perspective and allows for some great character development, however, it is very difficult for the guild head to enforce loyaltys and deliver orders and information to its members while still remaining secret. Also, if the guild head dies, the guild dies because no one else will know all the members. Also, for every member of your org that dies, you will in effect lose two because one member is the link to the organization for another.

On the other hand, as a member of a guild that is public, a character will take orders from someone he knows, will be surrounded by "brothers" he can easily identify, and when he pledges loyalty he will be able to see the effects of his support directly as his guild grows in size and power. Also, the guild leader will be able to figure out pretty easy who isn't suporting the guild and root them out. He will also be able to pass info and orders quickily to his people.

That all being said, I am rethinking the mechanic. Secret societies already have the deck stacked against them and guilds and houses who have strong heraldic devices will reap soft rewards as mentioned above. Also, as gamemasters, I think when we bring in a plot hook, if the hook is looking for people, then they should first seek out people wearing house colors or symbols. This is because they are going to appear more powerful. Numbers equal power and people dressed alike must be in the same group therefore they are powerful.

Thoughts?

Heraldry

RE

Bonus's