Wizard (Alchemy Only)

[Ark]

please please please

DONT for the love all that is holy DONT add a confusing ingredient system.

Brewers wanted the versitility of potions back, not a confusing system of gaining those potions. we have an overly complex system for people to give themself a migrane, its called the political system.

people who wanted to RP being out in the woods looking for stuff could, and others who just wanted thier potions could get them.

i have seen very few if any complaints about the way in wich people actaully aquired thier potions, so dont complicate it if its not needed. what people are complaining about is the lack of potions or the lack of usefullness of potions.

so here is a question, many others including myself have seen an almost complete list of potions that were in the game before the change. what particular aspect of that system or what particular potion was so great?

there were i think over 30 i have not looked over the list in some time but i recall not alot of them were actually that usefull, i got a sense of after having the 60+ spells and potions that it was more of a pokemon syndrom if anything, and people just wanted to have more then anyone else and try to keep it secret.

EDIT: lol
i just looked over the old master spell list 60+ just spells! i asume nearly as many potions but i could not find its file. yeah i think i like the new system better

meaning if you were both alchemy and mage, you had access to over 120ish abilites. . .yeah that was not broken at all, now i recall why it changed.

[Torakhan]

With regards to the high numbers of old potions, many of those were either:
A) Components for other items (i.e., Dwarven metals.)
B) Quest Potions: They had an ingredient that required actual questing.
C) Plot Potions: Potions that were for one event and never used again.
D) Multiples of the same potion with different quantities/levels.
E) Were gained through research and not intended* to be shared.
*but they always got out into the public one way or another

And there are currently 24 different potions available combined within the main book and H&V (that does not include each unique race for Mend the Body.)

It still sounds like most Alchemy is done by folks who, for the most part, use their Alchemy to augment others, or heal other folks up with a lesser amount to augment themselves. This isn't to say that there aren't Wizards who have taken fighting skills, or brew potions to make them more bad-ass in combat, but it sounds less common.
Is this because it's just how folks use Alchemy, or is it because of the current options available within Alchemy/Potions available? Were folks personally using more of their augmentation potions, etc. for themselves before, or have Alchemists mostly used their Alchemy to support others?

IF it is the way of the universe that most players use Alchemy to enhance/support others, then that puts them more into the same category as Craftsmen, Healers, and folks in the "Between-Games" Skills who are mostly enhancing, providing service to, and supporting other characters with their points/energy/efforts.

I play the epitome of the "augment others" character. I am not the norm, and I freely admit that, so how I use my potions is very skewed compared to others. Even back in the Ionia days, I never had reason to use my own potions and they were always freely given away. But if I don't have people to give them away to, I'm left with stacks and stacks of potions.

So, I guess my suggestion is also figuring out what is wanted/needed out of the system would be the most useful place to start, not only from the players, but from the direction of the GMs:
• Confined lists vs. Versatility
• Low-player-effort vs. High-player-effort
• Potions are for the maker vs. Potions are for giving to others
• Potions are a foundation for a character vs. Potions are a side job of a character.

Personally, I'm actually kinda satisfied with the way Alchemy is done right now. As I said previously, I am 50/50 Spells/Alchemy. And while I'm locked into 6 potions I'll ever be able to make (by the rules, at least), I can purchase Alchemy Labs to add any other potions (at least a given number during the event) in the main books.

My only issue I currently have is sort of akin to the "too much medicine for this sniffle I've got" where I have several potions to choose from, but most of them add extra stuff I don't want/need to them, and I guess that's where I'd like to have the ability to somehow alter a potion to pick and choose the features I'd like (I'd like to have a +2 Combat Reflexes, but I don't want to have to wield claws, or whatever.) However, since I don't use anything myself, that's for others to deal with.

[Wyrmwrath]

EDIT: lol
i just looked over the old master spell list 60+ just spells! i asume nearly as many potions but i could not find its file. yeah i think i like the new system better

meaning if you were both alchemy and mage, you had access to over 120ish abilites. . .yeah that was not broken at all, now i recall why it changed.

You could not have been master in both alchemy and arcane without giving up the upper path skill sets (advanced and master) unless your PC was very very old.

You also didnt get all the spell and potions from the list. they had to be discovered or traded for.

[GM_Chris]

Over 8 years the majority of people had all of the spells and potions as the player base made it a priority to share nearly everything with each other. There were exceptions and some did not share everything, but for the most part it was all in-game.

[cole45]

Potion expiration

I would make ALL potions expire during the off season.

"The new year causs the magic to ground, making all existing magics seep away."

Then color the tags for that year. Now you use the same color all year keeping the costs down. Plus it's super easy to see the tag.

[Torakhan]

If the decision is to go with expiration dates, I would suggest just writing, or adding a line for potion's brewed/creation date. Then make a new rule that says that any potion over 1-year old is expired.

That way every potion (unless otherwise stated) is only in game for 1-year before cycled out on its own. Yes, players would have to police themselves and be honest to not use an expired potion, but we already do that for so many other things (using hero points, taking damage, ripping used potions/material tags, etc.), and it's one less logistic for GMs to deal with too as it's the player that fills out the tags when they receive them (unless a GM really wants to do it themselves, I suppose.)

Besides, even as it is, keeping the potion stock the same isn't that easy. (At FH they might be white, light blue, textured-blue, etc. depending on what was in stock at the time of printing.)

[Ark]

i think events are going to end up like "re-pops" at carps. as you near the end of the year and finally the end event all of a sudden ALOT of potions are going to be used before the expire, not a bad thing, just saying.

i think potions should want to be used, and personally i hate the "per scene" thing, i know that has driven at least some people to not bother with them (myself inlcuded) thus my suggestion for viruses.

[Zydana]

I'm still confused why it's a problem if someone is sitting on a stack of unused potions. With the current rules, it's very limited to how many potions can be made and which potions can be made.

Likewise, is it an issue if someone is sitting on a stack of unused swords? We got rid of upkeep on those - so why add an expiration date to potions?

[GM_Chris]

Under current rules a stack of potions is harder to come by. Here is the problem:

You design some end battle scene that you feel is balanced and epic. Then the entire PC group shows up with power of the vampire which turns what was going to be an awesome experience into utter stupidness. In one respect it is neat to see the players use their resources in such a nice way. In another way the accumulation of potions turned epicness to bla.

So we might say power of the vampire is too powerful and it needs changed...valid argument

Now lets talk a stock pile of healing potions.

A few people with potions is a bonus, but the entire PC group with potions becomes unbalancing. It destroys balance in a way a stock pile of swords do not. It destroys balance in a way mass effect spells do not.

Ofcourse we could just up the difficulty to compensate for the potions, but that seems kind of lame as well.

[Zydana]

Yes but -

If there were enough Power of the Vampire potions to stockpile for the entire player base, then that would mean A LOT of the previous events they were NOT using Power of the Vampire. Did they have to fight extra hard in those battles because they didn't use it?

Power of the Vampire can only be brewed by someone with the Wizard Path - and can't be made by someone with only the discipline. So if the players have enough forethought to have someone with the Master Wizard Path make and horde enough Power of the Vampire potions for the entire player base to use on ONE "epic" battle - then so be it.

Remember part of this game is coming up with tactics, be it puzzles, diplomacy or combat. If we DID decide to give the entire player base a Power of the Vampire potion for an epic battle, I promise it would still be epic. There would be plenty of stories of "Remember when we..." Furthermore, I'm not sure you guys would ever have an "epic" battle without someone who could use magic. Would you guys be nasty enough to have one of your baddies re-pop with the banish skill? THAT could take out everyone. Maybe giving Power of the Vampire to everyone wasn't a good idea at that point. "Oh crap! Do we have enough cleanse potions for everyone? Who has the cleanse potions?!"

"Effect - You take upon the likeness and powers of the vampiric undead."
Likeness eh? That would also be interesting role playing as part of the aftermath. A bunch of NPCs think there's a city of vampires now! "What?! You have potions that turn people into vampires?"

Setting all silliness aside, truly if we have that much forethought and the self discipline to save that many potions to pull that off, let us have our fun in it. If we know it's going to be a huge battle, we try to prepare for it. I would like to think that the plot writers have captivated us players enough to appreciate the story behind the battle and strive for the results of defeating the foe. Don't think that epicness is a series of battles. In fact this past event, one of the plots was praised as being epic and was fairly combat light.

As for healing potions - the beneficial effects of them can be quickly negated by a few quick blows by multiple enemies, one bit hit or something more. Besides with the current play test of the healer, you can get a "quick heal" otherwise.


whoa - that was like 9 times longer than intended!

[Zydana]

oh - just wanted to make a note.

"You design some end battle scene that you feel is balanced and epic."

Try to stay away from that mentality. You may have designed this battle, toiled hours/days/weeks/months over the plot and even designed the world. But you need to remember, this is the player's story. Not yours.

When you start doing that, the game becomes unfun for the players.

(not saying you do this, but wanted to make the note)

(also, a battle of us all under the effects of PoV might actually be kinda fun! (and it's all about having fun, right?) Oh and remember the battle in the color world where some of us that drank a colored potion became immune from attacks from other colors but some colors did a crap ton more damage? I think that event was also highly praised for being one of the best. It was fun. You guys are quite creative and can roll with whatever hijinks we throw at ya!)

[GM_Chris]

The hording of potions is only a concern if we change the system.

A huge battle where the PC's are immune to the damage don by the NPC's and the NPC's cannot hit the PC's is not epic. I know some players like this; I play MMORPG's and there are certain players who really enjoy getting to max level and then PVP'ing low level characters. I understand this is not an exact analogy, but it is close.

LOL I assure you we do not toil over designing some perfect fight. What you try to do is make sure that our average NPC is a challenge for the average player. You then like to put in some kind of "boss' type that takes a combined effort or special tactics to bring down. These "boss" type NPC's swng for special damage and have special tactics to be a challenge for players.

Perhaps, if it is fun to potion horde the game needs to be balanced for potion hording. This would mean we would have to redesign all potions and potion rules with the idea that everyone will always have a potion.

or

Maybe the real issue is that alchemists just want the ability to DO something with greater frequency and they feel that potion hording is the answer. Basically, if you carry a giant bag around with you then you will always have something to hand out when the need arises, kinda like a utility belt in the super hero RP game.

I think if I wanted to redesign alchemy I would want the following things in it
1) Abilities that can always be done, but expire quickly..like 5 minutes after brewed. Basically the alchemist can always brew certain potions. This way the alchemist would feel more useful more consistently
2) Some kind of Easter egg hunt where there are potions to discover
3) Resources are needed for certain potions.
4) A general feeling of ookiness

[Ark]

when i ran Springhaven the most used potion was the "grenade" one. dont quite remember the effect but it was standard count, throw, damage, etc.

though with the limited amount of potions you would be out by friday night, so i would recomend like you said and include some abilities that they can always use.

explosive cocktail: the alchemist quickly mixes some volotile ingrediants and shakes them up to produce an explosive reaction, must be disposed of fast.

10 count to mix potion.
must be thrown within another 10 seconds
3 damage


or whatever, and you could make more different styles and add disease or poison so that alchemist could also act as debuffers as well. it would keep the feel of the class and make them more usefull in groups as they would be needed and not just the persons tags -_-

P.S. PoV's only strength back in the day is nobody new about it, its very weak and very easy to destroy, plus "per scene" is horrible, ill just run away and come back and claim "new scene"

[Wyrmwrath]

Chris,
While YOU..or the other GMs might not be happy with the epicness level in that sitution, they players may well be because they were witty and pro active enough to have made such effective advanced plans.
Don't get hung up on your personal definition of epicness of a scene/thread/event since its the players epicnss satisfaction that SHOULD be the main concern.

[Wyrmwrath]

PoV's only strength back in the day is nobody new about it, its very weak and very easy to destroy, plus "per scene" is horrible, ill just run away and come back and claim "new scene"

Not true....that potions power "back in the day" was that it worked very different. I know since its what let me fend of the elven and corbyn forces on the night of the skulls for nearly 15 minutes alone as opposed to the 3 maybe 4 id have lasted without due to being outnumbered 9 to 1.

Aslo you running off only to return to claim "new scene" isn't only metagame cheesy, it isn't a sure thing since the other player can just as easily claim the same scene since they have been in fervent pursuit of you. Such is the flaw in timing anything by the "scene" as opposed to actual seconds, minutes or hours.