Turtling Rule

Atrum Draconus · Post by **Atrum Draconus** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:05 pm

That spell doesn't, and nothing else in the game for that matter say you can't attack from the ground.

Dallid · Post by **Dallid** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:35 am

Press is to get someone out of your way, not make them a vulnerable prone target. Pressing down can't be legal.

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:20 pm

Doug, the spell is Arctic Blast, which requires a 5 count to get up. You are correct thatpPress to the ground is not legal.

And yes, you can attack from the ground but you must perform the 5 count to get up. Though if you are on the ground you are toast by staying there. It'd be super cheese to lay there and spin around or even flip over to avoid attacks.

Also, blocking with your feet while on your back still would count as damage. No, that shouldn't be in the rules. It is on the clue by four though.

celegar · Post by **celegar** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:32 pm

if were discussing safety, and that fighting from the ground is not safe, then there shouldnt be a spell that forces people to fight prone. not to be hipocritical or anything, but if i was hit by a spell that required me to get beat on for 5 seconds if i wanted to stand up, id spin around and fight from the ground because thats where the rules on that spell put me. point being, the rules should not put people in a dangerous situation....ever.

Dallid · Post by **Dallid** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:29 am

The only real added safety hazard of prone combatants is those on the ground could be stepped on in the chaos of combat. That, I think, can be handled on a case-by-case basis as has always been done in the past.

For starters, the prone PC will only get stepped on by people around him who are unaware of his presence (fighting someone else) - not by the people fighting him. If there 's an artic-blasted PC in the middle of a sizeable melee, those standing around him just need to show a bit of extra caution (automaticly done after an Artic Blast, when lots of people are on the ground). If the situation (or the people) doesn't allow for reasonably calm and controlled melee for that brief time, then the prone person just repositions a few feet away - out of the worst danger - as is often done with incapacitated PCs.

Can't say I've ever noticed injuries resulting from an Artic Blast. Folks know how to handle these situations.

Atrum Draconus · Post by **Atrum Draconus** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:56 am

Since this is a shield and turtling thread, what if someone is using a shield that goes from neck to knees (the legal shield size) while on their back and they pull their legs up under the shield? Cheese or not?

General Maximus · Post by **General Maximus** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:16 pm

It alll depends on the stituation. For some reason you trip while fighting or an effect knocks you down, than it's cool as long as you are trying to get back on your feet.

If you fall to the ground to avoid damage and hudle under your shield, than that is cheese. That person should be informed that it is not safe and should not be done.

My thought is folks should stay on there feet as much as possible during a fight to avoid acidently stepping on's. If you are laying on the ground during a combat and I step on you, it's your fault, not mine. I do not have eye's in back of my head and I will not be looking down while fighting.

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:35 pm

The spell is easily fixed. It should mandate that the person *must* spend the next 5 seconds getting up which was the intention. It was not for people to fight on their back, which you shouldn't do even if it is an option as you put yourself and others in a bad position. Eat the 5 seconds of standing up and do the right thing.

Dallid · Post by **Dallid** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:08 am

The intent of the spell is to make a large group vulnerable for a short time and is intended to be followed up with an immediate attack. When attacked while prone, it is unnatural to ignore the attack in order to stand back up.

However, I don't think there's ever been a problem with the way people have handled the aftermath of an arctic blast, so I don't think it needs discussion.

As for shields, it's instinctive for players to try to 'turtle up' when prone. However, being prone tends to leave them so vulnerable that they're going to take hits frequently, regardless. Turtling up is cheesy, yeah, but the instint is a strong one and I don't think it's normally going to be worth breaking scene in this case to remind them not to. Nothing wrong with telling them to stop turtling, but I think you're usually not going to have much trouble landing hits on a prone player no matter what they do - certainly if the shield, itself, isn't cheesey.

Wyrmwrath · Post by **Wyrmwrath** » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:49 am

legal shield size is actualy knee to shoulder. I know it sounds the same but there is a small difference...

Atrum Draconus · Post by **Atrum Draconus** » Thu Dec 24, 2009 2:24 pm

I think most people will interpret "knee to shoulder" as the bottom of the knee, which is where your shins begin to top of your shoulders, which is where your neck begins. Basically I was asking of you're on the ground, have a shield, and pull your legs under it is that cheesy. I would say no, do everything you can to protect yourself if you're being attacked that's legal and it doesn't matter how you got into the situation. I know it SOUNDS like it's cheesy to leave only your head and neck vulnerable but I think it's not only a very normal reaction for someone to do but well within the rules and doesn't break the "spirit" of the rules.

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:13 pm

it's fine as an intial 'knee jerk' (pun intended) reaction. However, you should make all efforts to get your ass off the ground after that. Laying on the ground curled up is asking to get trampled, kicked, etc. It's like if you are dying, don't just fall down in the middle of things. Drop to a knee or something so you are still visible and if possible slide out of the main combat if you were in it. Remember, in FH, you are not unconscious at zero or negatives.

celegar · Post by **celegar** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:13 pm

on that matter though, if we make the case that people shouldnt put themselves in a dangerous position then we also have to make the point that the game should not have rules that place those same people in a dangerous position(such as arctic blast). we have to be consistent in this, so if its against the rules for people to be down in a fight then we cant have rules that put people in that same position.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:27 pm

i dont think this has ever really been i big issue, i know you have to look out for saftey situation before they happen, but in a game where you have...

people falling down dead, objects flying through the air, 20-30 people running around, everyone usually swinging some sort of weapon, people running to battle, people running from it.....

crap is going to happen, and i think everyone here has always been very good about avoiding injury, but if you get hit and go down, and you feel it would be unsafe to drop where your at, simply stumble to the side

Dallid · Post by **Dallid** » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:15 am

Most definitely want to get back to your feet as quickly as possible after being forced prone. It’s a horribly vulnerable position, and I believe everyone knows that and does try to get up as quickly as possible. The only time this tends not to happen is when a prone player has three or four people beating on him and he can’t afford committing limbs to getting back up - too busy trying to block incoming strikes. Such a player will soon be in the negatives if his friends don’t help him out.

Now, should a player go prone as part of his combat strategy, then, yeah, that’s cheesy, unsafe, and should be strongly discouraged. I can’t imagine that being effective, anyway. I don’t recall ever seeing anyone do that (other than playing dead – which is neither cheesy nor unsafe), so I don’t think it’s an issue.