Spell and Potions

Post by **GM_Chris** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:43 pm

So I have seen this come up in the other discussion so I wanted to take a moment to talk to everyone about how at least I wanted magic to be.

First History:
We, as in all of us, historically tend to gravitate toward a magic system with a buy in cost followed by the "I can do anything" once bought. I think a lot of this comes from D&D where a mage can buy spells that turn them into fighters while still having their spells. Other games have naturally bought into this game design so you have what we have today which is a single buy in cost which gives you a bunch of different things to do which is radically different than how every other skill works.

We also tend to separate out things like rune magic, regular magic, chaos magic, blood magic, Potions, bla bla bla, when in lore they were all the same kind of thing.

Conceptually
I always wanted magic (Arcanes) to have that Gandolf on the bridge "Though Shall not Pass" moments. I did not want the fireball bunch of spells D&D mage. No I want the ookie, not sure I understand spell caster that when he/she uses their power it is a big deal...but it is seldom used.

Potions..honestly I never had much of an idea what to do with them, but over time the idea of Transformation and additional healing came up.

Today
Today I always think back to what Evan said "Arcanes in this game should have 4 abilities, one for each level". This was said like 4 years ago and has stuck with me as there is truth in what Evan had said.

The best conceptual moment I have seen for arcanes (off the top of my head) was ugs Fuzzy Bunny.

1) In game spell component
2) role playing as it took multiple arcanes
3) mystery as no one knew what was going to happen
4) Big effect that changed the course of the battle

In my brain the arcane should be able to pull off an event changing event only once in awhile, and the rest of the time everyone just knows the power is there.

Not sure how I would ever fix it to be more inline with what I was thinking, but there it is.

Potions
Well I think some potions are conceptually different than what I would like. I also think I would make brewing them easier like
1) Alchemists can brew any number of plot related potions during an event.
2) In-between events an alchemist can brew 4 levels worth of potions, plus additional potions for buying things like a la, assistance and so forth.

Makes it easy and we don’t have the brewing time mess people complain about during the event while still allowing plot potions to be brewed.

I could also, if there was significant limitation on both, of combining the arcane and alchemy disciplines. I could see like there being 5 levels of potion making forcing people to have workshops, components, and other players to actually get big effects into game. I could see the same for spells. So the arcane would have BIG effects that are really seldom used (once a year), a couple effects they might use once an event, and some potions to wip out now and again that work kind of how they do now.

cole45 · Post by **cole45** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:06 pm

i like the idea of making potions a between event thing. You'd have to be little generous between events, but that is a great idea. It makes the potions seem like they take longer brew, making it dramatic.

upside? very easy to see the potions going into game.

downside way way more work for gms. (i find that acceptable).

If you want to fix arcane though, you'd have to start from the ground up. something in game wipes magic out, and rebuild the arcance.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:17 pm

i dont like the two because of the sheer amount of stuff you can do, and the power of some of it.

i like your LotR idea mainly because it brings up a point, Arcanes have no real defensive spell, there are maybe two out of MANY, MANY, damage spells, and about half of the spells i have seen in movies and games are barrier spells and the like.

i do like the idea of wipeing out arcane and starting over though, would be a fun plot

Woden · Post by **Woden** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:36 pm

'Overview' post to come. (busy working on CARPs stuff)

Post by **GM_Chris** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:37 pm

I think alchemists are much more powerful than an arcane due to item combos with transmutation potions.

I think you don't have to be too generous with alchemy, but can provide economics to brew more between events.

Too much work between events? No you buy your potions at game on or game off.

The way I see it the arcane and alchemist should be able to do the same "amount" of stuff other skills in the game do and all of the skills are situational as should arcane and alchemy.

I think plots need to be designed around skill sets so people feel needed. (just a side thought)

Anyways I am trying to figure out why arcane and alchemy are seperate. Make them the same and limit both on the number of things they can do, but make the stuff they can do, in the right situation, very very cool.

Jaycen Blackhawk · Post by **Jaycen Blackhawk** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:27 am

My main criticism of the Arcane system:

The implementation does not match the concept.

I like the fact that Arcane magic isn't quick and dirty like other LARP systems use (say some words, throw a spell packet, do massive amounts of damage).

The problem is that most of the spells and effects I've seen try to mimic that sort of power.

I totally agree that Arcane magic should be along the lines of epic magic ala Gandalf or Pug. An Arcanist should be able to sunder a mountain, but not be able to move a pebble. People should be afraid when the Arcanist starts to chant his words of power.

I think using LoTR as a guide point might not be a bad idea, restructure the whole of Arcane and decide what philosophy you want.

Level 1 should be simple and easy effects, minor protections, effective but limited offensive, but none of it actually magic.

A balance point does need to exist. After all a Master Empath can throw a 30 Magic with a 60 second charge. Do you want Arcane magic to be more of a threat?

This sounds like a fun project.

Atrum Draconus · Post by **Atrum Draconus** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:39 am

Uhm, can Nelkie step in her to kybosh this brewing between event\shortening brew time thing. I think I STILL have some potions form the 1 event I got to brew potions between events. Unless you are tearing alchemy down to the ground and starting over alchemy is actually pretty good. I don't know what exactly your concept for it was, but I don't think it's gotten too far away from the feel it was supposed to be. Yes it does have the best buffs, it is the way to become a specialized fighter, no doubt. I don't think you need to change how alchemy works, but bringing in some plots like the medusa thing from a few years ago or the growing splitting bugs(that I still have the box for) will make alchemy more utilitarian and offer chances to do things at the game. I personally have never had an issue with going to one of the GM's and doing things with alchemy. Usually I've been able to if it's something that works within the confines of the plot.

Arcane, I think there have been too many different ideas about what it should be so it's just an amalgamation of a bunch of ideas that aren't cohesive so it just does whatever anyone wants it to do. I REALLY REALLY think making arcanes LESS useful on a day to day basis is the worst idea I've heard about arcane. What you may want to see arcane as and what people like doing are probably very very different things. The biggest complaint about arcane is that other than raising people they don't get to use the discipline enough as it is.

You wanna make arcane more cool and earth shattering, then let people do stuff like Fuzzy Bunny if they come up with a good spell on the spot. You don't ever have to make it a written spell, you don't ever have to let anyone ever do it again, but if you think it's plot appropriate for that moment and it's thought out then wing it. Drop them to -25 or whatever and have the fortress crumble that we are attacking. Have them stop the strong man in his tracks and force him into a phylactery, but they can't do anything more than 1st level spells for a year and a day afterward.

Combining arcane and alchemy into one thing is also a bad idea, ESPECIALLY with the idea that it should be 1 huge effect that happens once a year. All you'll accomplish with that is making a game where you have precious few options for mechanical distinction worse on that front.

Magic Items, because you can't have this discussion without those, were never meant to be as powerful as they are. Those stone rings were supposed to be like artifacts and I'd say that they are average power for magic items. Silverthorne's sword only gave you a +1 to damage.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:45 pm

i think potions would be better if on the really sick ones Pov and so on, you actually had to go get some of the ingrediants, like on the spider web one you had to go kill a spider.

i dont know where to post this but me and my brother were talking and want to sugest implimenting the slay pool

have it be a point for point pool with a limit of how much you can get, cant swing more than 10 slay at a time, and have it be a 2 count per slay, so a 2 slay would be a 4 count, and a 10 slay would be a 20 count.

i really liked this idea so i want to see what others think

Smitty19 · Post by **Smitty19** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:06 pm

as a GM from Winterhaven and a player from Final Haven i have two distinct viewpoints....

One being the player side, and that I love the idea of magical do-dads and one off magic items that by no means are game changing but can make a difference in a pinch

The other being the GM side knowing what goes into making items, and I am all for items that add benefits to skills, not damage... I am all about allowing for items that allow in certain circumstances, a dramatic effect that can and will alter things on a non-cataclysmic scale.

As for fixing things, I really dont think Alchemy needs all that much change, other than actually making some use of going out and searching for ingredients. CJ, Adam and Myself were talking, and had a pretty cool idea about using some of the more exotic ingredients in a real life way by getting some of the aquarium like plants, and the like being hidden at the site and people having to go out and find them to gather them...this makes them not just, ohh look...i have all my ingredients, and can also add to plots/what not. I know it will involve more work on the gm's part, but I really think this could have a positive effect.

Arcanes I really have no qualms about, and I dont want to see anything get changed just for change sake...

And to the part about adding a Slay pool....

NO NO NO NO a thousand times no...

It works in CARPS, thats where it belongs, we dont need to add calls...we need to tighten up and clear up the wording of the calls we already have, and this game will be just fine..

cole45 · Post by **cole45** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:42 am

New Arcane brainstorm

Arcane 1:
Fortune’s Favored. The arcane gets one floating hero point at the beginning of every event. The Arcane may give it away or use it, but it goes away at the end of the event.

Arcane 2:Lesser Mimic
Arcanes may mimic any lvl 1 skill at the cost of 15 minutes and 2 magic components. This uses up a buff slot.

Arcane 3:
The arcane may spend ten minutes and 4 magic components to use any skill they, or one person who touches them for the entire duration have. The skill must be one with a charge time of five minutes or less. If it’s a life point skill , the life point must be paid normally.

After ten minutes, the caster may call a game stop, and throw a triangulated packet effect of the skill + the magic call. Damage is limited to 15.

Arcane 4:
The arcane may spend one hour and 8 magic components to use any skill they, or one person who touches them for the entire duration have. The skill must be one with a charge time of five minutes or less. If it’s a life point skill , the life point must be paid normally.

After ten minutes, the caster may call a game stop, and every one in the sound of my voice effect of the skill + the magic call. Damage is limited to 15.

This may only be done once an event.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:57 pm

wow, that actually sounds really cool, it would be coll to charge a healing spell then do a triangulated healing of your group, that actually seems really cool

Zeira · Post by **Zeira** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:13 pm

I think that would be not good. Arcane should not be able to heal. The 1st level ability is too powerful. Everybody would take it just for the free hero point for themselves.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:16 pm

1st - arcanes cant heal look over the skills, they cant actually do anything, the would need a healer to heal, an empath to do magic, so on, they would become a force multiplier.

2nd - i agree that the first is a little powerfull, but i also like it because it gives back repoping hero points, wich i was sad to see go,

i always saw hero points as limit breaks, you couldnt use them all the time, but you could always have it in case things got bad, now were back to hording them never wanting to use them, i really dont like them now, i understand thats how it was before, but man used to ride horses before too, then something better came along.

i think there is a big underlying problem here, there have been alot of changes, advanced rules, hero points, political, money, all skills in general, and i think this is a critical point, were the GMs need to sit down and re figure out where they want the game to go, and how they want it to go

cole45 · Post by **cole45** » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:22 am

I picked the hero point to represent the few level one and two spells out there. it would work once an event, and give you five life or cut time down. Is that any more powerful than making an undead blow up for ten lash?

lvl 2 was because there are SO many spells that just mimic a single skill magically.

these could be flipped

anyway, this isn't by any means perfect, just brainstorming.

Atrum Draconus · Post by **Atrum Draconus** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:17 pm

Empath and rogue are the "slay pools" for this game.

Arcane
I'm against an arcane getting a free hero point every event, especially since noone else gets repopping hero points any more. Every one else will get one every what, 8 or 10 events or something like that after 20th. FAR too much to give 1 discipline.

It should be MUCH harder for an arcane to mimic than a sage, I'd say that should be 4th level and ter is already a spell that does this and has a balancing effect to it.

3 and 4, too powerful. Heal might not be but the way it's written you could give everyone disarm, resists, fear, 15 magic, do it at the beginning of the game and break the economy with barter. Just far too much that can be all too broken.

Arcane was supposed to be versatile, that's why all the different skills they can do with spells.

And I do like the idea of more "quest" items for alchemy. That used to be a really cool part of the game, getting people together to go into a graveyard or something like that so we could collect ingredients.