A few questions

[Woden]

We could just remove immunities..

[Zeira]

3 magic poison vorpal Knockout.

Why would someone add Poison to that call? Poison has to effect life points to be effective doesn't it? Knockout doesn't do damage so poison wouldn't work. That is the most confusing part of that call. The poison that has no buisness being there.

[cole45]

Zeira, the poison is irrelevant. It was just the longest PC call I could come up. Replace it at will.

[Atrum Draconus]

We could just remove immunities..

If that's the case for PC's AND NPC's including undead, golems, werewolves the strong man and such I'd be fine with that.

Kiel, I LOVE that call, without the magic because that just gives you another way to resist it unless you're a powerful undead but the poison will make them not able to resist anything else , the vorpal means they pretty much need a parry to avoid it and the ko will knock them out. The order they come out in makes no difference so it would be vorpal KO and vorpal poison. Now if you have enough armor you're just fine. Can I rewrite again?

[Zeira]

3 magic poison vorpal Knockout.

The person would not be poisoned because the knockout didn't effect their life points. They would be knocked out and their armor (with the exception of kandium) is irrelevant because the call is vorpal.

So...When you resist or immune a call do you resist that entire call or just the part of the call that's you resist?

"3 magic poison vorpal knockout"

"Resist!" from resist poison and I take none of the effects

or

"Resist!" from resist poison skill fall to the ground knocked out but not poisoned.

The first example makes people think about adding extra calls on attacks and is simpler as far as using the skills. However it makes resist skills a little more powerfull than they were probably designed to be.

The second example is more realistic. Just because you stabbed me in the face and you are immune to poison does not mean I didn't stab you in the face. However it can be confusing to some players, especialy in a combat scenario.

And more importantly which way are we doing it at FH?

[Atrum Draconus]

It used to be the former and now if any part of the call you can avoid none of it affects you.

The person would not be poisoned because the knockout didn't effect their life points. They would be knocked out and their armor (with the exception of kandium) is irrelevant because the call is vorpal.

Well, the vorpal would mean that they were poisoned because vorpal goes straight to life pts, like I said the order the calls are said has never made a difference and I don't think they are starting that now because that would be dumb to make 1 thing simpler and make another thing more complex.

The interesting question is does the KO not affect you or does it? Before that was simple, it did unless you avoided the entire thing, now I think we've actually created a causality loop because KO has a different type of "immunity" than anything else. LOL I love it, make a change that shifts the "complexity" to somewhere else and at the same time makes immunities 3 times as powerful as they used to. Sorry, that's just way too fracking ironic for me not to die laughing.

And I'm serious abuot the rewrite if you guys stick with this change vorpal ko is useless now and vorpal poison just became half as effective as the 1/3 of the time it was effective before.

[GM-Mike]

Hmm, actually Zeira has a really good point that no one is understanding.

If someone is hit with a 3 KO, they take no damage whatsoever. It is a comparison against armor to determine whether or not the blow knocks you out.

Vorpal KO means the KO works regardless of having armor but you still don't take any damage.

So now, what does 3 vorpal ko mean? Since ko is in the call, do you take any damage? If you don't take any damage, would appending poison to the call do anything since technically no life points were taken?

So I understand Zeira, but Temple, you lost me and I thought I had your back. How is vorpal ko any different than before?

[Atrum Draconus]

Aah ok I see what Keil was saying now. I never assumed that the 3 was only attatched to one of them it was 3 vorpal poison and 3 vorpal ko done at the same time, since charging a 3 ko takes more time than a 3.

If the new model is if you can resist\immune any part of it then if you have more armor than the ko call then none of the call affects you, and anything (vorpal, crush, poison, disease, magic) else you tack on doesn't make a difference as long as you have enough armor. Because BEFORE all this willy nillness KO worked EXACTLY like an immunity. Or does that one stay working differently? Which really just slides the caveat of "complexity" from poison to ko and opens up an entire new can of worms.

So like I said, the caveat didn't change, it just slid to ko from magic or poison, however you want to look at it. Personally, I've never seen poison as the caveat because it works exactly like # disease.


Anyway, I'll just stay out of it until a consensus can be reached on how we're making the game "simpler".

[Ark]

you know its funny mike i just recently had that discusion on the SH boards

1) poison vorpal knockout thingy : you dont take the damage from the knockout, you sleep if you get knocked out, and poison is how its always been, if it hits there life, there poisoned, if it dosnt, there not

person has 6 armor
gets hit with 3 poison knockout
person is fine
gets hit again for 3 vorpal poison knockout
person is poisoned and asleep

2) resist and immunity thingy : the main thing here is everyone thinks that poison and disease, the two that you can get immunitys for easily are everyday calls.

disease is very rare, thats why it is available as an immunity in the first place, if something is swinging 30 disease, you have to assume the monkey will be fine

poison is also not that common, and i hear it mostly as someone swinging "poison" so it cant be blocked and surges, nothing swings these long @$$ calls people are coming up with.

haveing these two immunities is not game breaking, in fact it adds PC strategy, if someon wants to knock someone out, you probobly know what that person is, and if they can resist it, and if you dont your a poor assassin and deserve to die.

i cant belive your complaining about a skill ruining vorpal poison knockout when there is armor in game that makes people immune to vorpal all together, to each his own

[GM-Mike]

Well I think that call would be confusing no matter which system you use because of the presence of knockout in the call, which works differently than the other calls so if nothing else we need to clarify that.

Also, at one time there was going to be a rule where you couldn't have more than two effects on a single call, which I think is good practice, again regardless of the system you use.

[GM-Mike]

Kandium is another story. I would be in favor of getting rid of that all together.

[Atrum Draconus]

Josh, someone definitely can do a #vorpal poison ko, someone even got a chubby when it actually worked on something besides a normal humanoid. And that someone always thought the same way you do about it that the victim was poisoned and knocked out.

That's the rub for me here, KO never did work differently than other effect calls.

Before you had #special damaging effect type calls (vorpal, crush, magic), of which magic worked slightly different because you could resist it, the only way to "resist" the others was parry.

Fear straddled the line between the two types

The other type of call is #special effect call (poison, ko, disease) which, even though worded differently, all worked the exact same way. If you get past armor and CR you took the effect or without a number it surged.

resists and immunities worked the same for everything in both of those categories and the straddler but resists and immunities did different things.

[Woden]

Well I think that call would be confusing no matter which system you use because of the presence of knockout in the call, which works differently than the other calls so if nothing else we need to clarify that.

For the record Ive been against the KO rules since day one, as its the only attack where the number DOES NOT equal damage. Also for the record, no one has ever presented a better idea on how to make it work.

Also, at one time there was going to be a rule where you couldn't have more than two effects on a single call, which I think is good practice, again regardless of the system you use.

I think that was a 'behind the scenes' call from back in the day, that never made it public. Would be a good idea though.

[Ark]

Josh, someone definitely can do a #vorpal poison ko

i didnt say someon couldnt do it, there are alot of combos people can do, the thing is people are listing a swing of 3 vorpal poison magic disease crush fear poo. and complaining that its easy to resist or be immune to something in a call.

its always been known by players of any larp like FH or Carps the more skills you have in a call the more likely the chance that they will have a counter for one, and thus the whole thing.

if someone is immune to poison, disease, fear, and can resist magic, you hit them with a vorpal knockout, if the have armor that negates that you find a couple of warriors and kill them the old fashion way

[GM-Phil]

Personally I like the way KO works better than the old ways of Nerve strike and what ever the other KO skill was when I started. i just have not come up with a way to improve KO yet.

As for 3 vorpal poison knockout - By the way the rules are right now you would be Ko'ed if you could not Parry or resist it (minus the addition of Kandium) but you would not be poisoned as the attack does no actual damage. The Poison is merely there for another possible resist. As to why that is even added to the call - because the way Assassin Poison works is that once you poison your blade it stays poisoned until sheathed.. so if you poison your blade to do some poison damage and then need to Vorpal KO someone.. you have to add poison to the call unless you sheathe your weapon first.. and then you would have to re-poison your weapon again.

As for limiting the number of calls than can be linked I would say rather than just make a global rule.. go through the skills that are passive and get linked to a lot of calls and make them either LP skills or Charge skills.. that way they cannot be linked up with other skills because of the already existing rule in the game that you cannot use a LP or charge skill at the same time.

Oh and i would be quite willing to be rid of Immunties for simplicity sakes - Just change Beastman to Resist Disease and Guthrie to Resist Fear - And then take away the Stackability of Resists - Now maybe you can move Regular Resists to costing 2LP and if you have Two or more Resists it drops the cost to 1LP. (Just an idea).