FH Combat

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:26 am

im not trying to be dificult im trying to understand, are you telling me giving someone the ability to get 6 resources, so they can just have fun and not worry, is broken, and items thet allow you to swing/take a bunch of damage, and be immune to calls and insta sleep people is not broken, giving someone 6 resources so they dont have to worry isnt going to make them not be social, do you really think thats the only thing that holds the game together? is the fact that you have to go collect resources? i personally come to have fun with my siblings and freinds, i like to fight, i also like wandering around in the woods knowing the posibility of a monster attacking me isnt my imagination, its not an infinite suply of resources, its 2 more, the ONLY thing that makes me not want to come is upkeep, that is the only in game thing that i dislike, and if there was a way for me to get rid of it without waiting tell im a high level and have to deal with a political system that i dont understand i would take that chance, im not trying to break the game im just trying to have fun

halfelfman · Post by **halfelfman** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:30 am

Why can you spend 10 points at start for a skill that costs 20 points to learn?

It allows starting players to learn a skill that is designated for sages and diplomats in a world where literacy is a rarity. The creation system also allows for switching out a basic skill in your path for another paths basic skill. So in theory you can start out with read/writex2 and never have a path or discipline that has it as a primary.

On the other side of the coin it allows players to have a skill available that they are familar with. I say this due to all larpers tend to be able to read and write, some beter than others but still....

Should players have the ability to create a pc that can sustain everything they need without interaction with the other pc's. why not, the points are spent at the cost of offence and defence skills. Your pc may be rich but grog the rogue/fighter over there may just kill you and take your things while no one is looking.

It's a common set up at several larps where you can create a political money making pc but when it comes to combat your screwed.

After reviewing over the rules the only way i can see someone becoming self sustaining and profiting on a cosistant basis would mean thier pc would have to be a minimum of level 40 priviledged human/sage/beur/diplomat unless someone sees an easier way.

Post by **GM-Mike** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:35 am

That is incorrect. The creation system allows you to swap out a basic skill, any basic skill, for the FIRST skill in another path. Read/Write is not an option. Only Basic Research from the Sage path may be bought.

And yes, it is broken, insanely broken. What you are basically asking us to do is completely remove that part of the game because, as Heidi said, there's not a single person who would not take that at start-up. Getting weapons and armor in game is really easy. Everything else you buy has limited use. It will change the feel of the game because survival is no longer a huge worry. If we change the political system to the way I want to run it (and no I'm not going to say what that is right now--no sense worrying about something that might not happen), then what you propose will break that system as well.

In addition, what you are asking constitutes a rule change to the base rules, which will be immediately vetoed by Chris because no base rules will be changed. Not this year. Probably not ever.

In short, what Heidi said, it is never going to happen.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:16 pm

okay i understand a little better now, my fix was broken, but not the idea, you were able to do it before in game was it broke then? to my understanding everybody didnt do it, they continued to play what they wanted

Kalphoenix · Post by **Kalphoenix** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:26 pm

Since I've been pretty verbal in this thread, let me just say that I am NOT a FH Gamemaster, my comments should not be taken as gospel truth or FH GM mindset unless someone backs me up otherwise, they are just my personal observations and opinions.

halfelfman wrote: It's a common set up at several larps where you can create a political money making pc but when it comes to combat your screwed.

You bet you still can. I see you also reiterated this in your post while looking over the rules. Just probably not from the get-go, because you'll probably need to be "Influential" enough (With support points) to buy production sources/traderoutes (Your level numbers look right). At that point, you can probably support yourself with no huge problems except market fluctuation/production. You'd be stuck with almost no combat skills though, because if you play a Master Buereocrat/Master Diplomat/Basic Sage, you only have something like, 20 points left at level 20 or 30 (Been awhile since I did the math). Think the starving artist type, too proud to accept what they can try to earn themselves. You'd have a little more if you only went 3rd in each, but I think you have to go Master Bureaucrat to really boost your support points. You still better have friends though, or anyone can take it from you.

Technically, being starving at that point wouldn't be THAT bad, since you probably don't have many in-game skills anyway (Although not really being able to run would probably hamper you substantially). With the argument I keep hearing that you can be "screwed" combat-wise, you CAN accept starving as that "screwed" point. In most cases, while it puts you at a disadvantage for combat (Such as what keeps being said above as "acceptable"), it doesn't make you unplayable by any means.

I think for a reasonable example, most "normal" people in the game in their small settlements or whatever where they are trying to eke out a sustenance-level existence, ARE probably starving, at least mechanically.

I would generally agree that if someone wants to play a "survivor" at the cost of combat skills, it should be allowed (I used to be a pretty staunch arguer against them being taken out originally), but there also needs to be a balancing mechanism whereby the resources they gather are useless to anyone else. In my own humble opinion, Wilderness Survival should have been made a level 2 skill instead of a 1st level to bring it more in-line with diplomat, but then again, it's also lower because it's reasonable to assume that someone of a more savage upbringing might have these skills easier than someone of a privileged nature.

There are lots of reasons why resources in the system are limited. For one, this IS a survival based game. The players are fantasy pioneers, struggling to regain some sense of order in a world where large chunks of it are missing. Only by working together (or at least pretending to) do they have a chance at a better existence. It's a good balance: "Do I steal what I need and risk getting caught and punished? Or do I hope that because I help the community, regardless of whether I am a crafter or a warrior, they will make sure I don't starve. Do I starve and thereby learn to either be sneakier, stronger or more cooperative?"

Most people DO get supported, so I'm not sure how bad you have to be that NO ONE wants anything to do with you. I'm pretty sure SOMEONE was upkeeping the necromancer, Amagus, and lots of people grumbled openly about what he was doing. In a more out-of-character view, restricting resources also keeps the higher powered magic/crafted item count down and keeps people from firing off higher level Arcane spells like it's going out of style. It makes building actual mechanical structures more difficult.

For things to be changed, the whole political/support/trade resource structure would have to be massively altered. Which, as Mike says, is unlikely to happen this year, if ever. I still don't agree that the rules are perfect and polished. I don't agree with several of the rule changes. But I accept that FOR NOW, they are sufficient.

It's not my call, but for consistency's sake, I don't have a problem with the idea of Read/Write being taken out of starting gear points, since Privileged/Common can still buy them for pretty cheaply ala 20 points in Diplomat and anyone else can take the first two levels of sage for 40. It still requires a "real" investment. But the GMs would have to give more friendly reminders and be checking more sheets to make sure people who are reading things actually have read/write. It's hard to "forget" something you accidentally read. Also, for the 20 points you pay for the actual skill, you get two languages you can read/write, for 10 with starters, you just get one. It makes sense for a lot of people to know both their racial language (If applicable, not all races have a language) and the common language.

Otherwise, folks can wait and see what (if anything) goes in for perks and advanced skills and you might someday be able to support yourself with gathering skills. It will just be an achievement, rather than something you just "get."

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:36 pm

level 40= 1 larp, 4 games a year, 4 levels an event=2 1/2 YEARS
but never mind, dont care anymore, i tried.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:24 pm

**WARNING**
this is completly off topic but might be helpfull.

So i was thinking over rules and getting depressed, (not game fault, rules by definition are depressing) when i decided to look into the archives and past event feedback, and it reinvigorated me, if you ever need help look at that, because thats all the good times that are remembered, and its fun to look over all the different perspectives people have, and how much RPing goes down that no one thinks about.

Torakhan · Post by **Torakhan** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:45 am

Ark wrote:level 40= 1 larp, 4 games a year, 4 levels an event=2 1/2 YEARS

Unless I'm mistaken (very possible)
4 events of Final Haven, + 4 events of Winter Haven + 1 One-Day + 5 CARPS NPCing = 14 levels in a year. 14x4 levels = 56 levels a year.
Even if you don't do CARPS NPCing, you're still looking at 36 levels per year.
(and yes, that means you play the same character at both games, but that's the cost of grinding .)

I believe that with any incarnation of FH, there will always be some sort of "survival" beyond swinging a sword, and upkeep and similar concepts are a part of that. ("Heroes" rarely spend all of their time farming or mining.) There are other LARP/Foam Combat groups available that remove that "flavor", and some that are nothing but hanging out and swinging foam weapons at people (See Dagorhir from "Wreckreation Nation", or the movie "Role Models".)
As for being with friends, I learned first-hand that FH is not a place to go to if you want to "hang with your friends", being that you really need to stay IC. Game Break and Post-Game were more entertaining for me than games (especially after Ionia), so I just don't play anymore. Maybe one day, but not right now.

(And, yeah, I think we're a ways off of topic already.. maybe a few pages ago. *L* )

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:49 pm

i was useing myself as an example, i only go to one larp, and cant make the one day, and i said "have fun" not hang out with friends, there is a diference, i come to have fun playing a game, if i dont have fun i wont come, but dont fret i got your point, its not going to happen and if its possible it will take a large comitment, the only reason im making such a big deal is my xbox broke so im really bored

Post by **GM_Chris** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:02 pm

If you wanted to come and just RP and not have any skills then you wouldnt need upkeep.

I didnt read anything though except maye 1 sentence so I am not even sure what I am responding too.

Or you could starve and just have a bunch of skills cost double or take twice as long. IMO works good for an old person or perhaps a very young person concept.

Torakhan · Post by **Torakhan** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:10 am

GM_Chris wrote:If you wanted to come and just RP and not have any skills then you wouldnt need upkeep.

Or you could starve and just have a bunch of skills cost double or take twice as long.

As long as you don't mind stealing swords/shields/etc., or having one-event equipment, that could work... though I'm imagining none of that sounds good for someone who wants to be effective in combat.

(of course, there's always just being someone else's patsy and getting everything you need for being in their service (*cough* how most people have survived in FH so far *cough*), but isn't that how it went anyways in that sort of setting?)

Atrum Draconus · Post by **Atrum Draconus** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:40 pm

And hence why there are choices.

Play the lone wolf and barely survive or actually have some interactions with other people and live decently. You wanna be the lone wolf, you're either gonna spend a lot of your time looking for food, so you don't have a lot of skills that don't apply to that or you can spend a lot of time playing with your toys which would make you better in combat.

And you certainly don't have to be someone's patsy, it only takes a few people and you can easily stand on your own, as long as you can trade with other players.

Post by **GM_Chris** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:25 pm

be a monk then you don't need upkeep.

Be a monk rogue and you could actually deal big damage though it would take you twice as long.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:45 am

yeah i was looking over what would be best to be while starving, and chris has a pretty good idea

FH Combat

Level Grinding at LARP...