Sage Hint - > NPC Camp

[cole45]

I disagree about having an issue with out of game. The No out of game clause is there to prevent one player from sneaking up on another, only to find they are out of game talking to a GM.

It doesn't work that way. Your character is where your body phyrep IS.

If you need to rationalize that your sage needs to go to a non-existant place, go ahead, but you can't roleplay OUT of a requirement. You can't say "I do X this way, why should I have to follow that rule?" Answer? iT'S A rule.d

If you can't rationalize going to NPC camp, you just aren't trying hard enough, or you don't want to.

ANY sage scenario can be created to need that requirement. ANd besides, is it a bad thing to force the Sages to go outside the safety of the Inn? Hell no. Get a buddy and go down there.

[GM_Chris]

to NPC camp (which doesn't exist in-game)

Actually when we started the game NPC camp was ingame and I think we need to go back to that, and take some real steps to make NPC camp a cool place.

Out of game is a HUGE problem in a LARP. The Out of game I am talking about is in-game vs out of game knowledge not weapon use and all of that. It is a difinitive line.

There is no out of game when it comes to knowledge. This rule is in effect due to the YEARS, about 8 of them, dealing with this problem at CARPS. We would get calls at 2am about it waking us up. Everytime ANYTHING happened that was percieved as unfair it was because a person metagamed.

Therefore, we do not have it in our game. Therefore, no one can metagame. Therefore no one can "cheat" at least in this form.

Now why do we want people walking around in game instead of out of game? Well the hand over the head thing takes away from a scene. It confuses people, and it allows for people to glean information without danger.

As a PC, it is annoying when an NPC runs at you and then says OH I am a giant and 18 feet tall right before smashing you. To be honest it is bad NPC behavior and we need to work on that. Likewise, it is bad when the PC is out of game in an in game area. though each has its place we ar not Nazi's in this game.

A little back Story
When I voted on this skill forsage I did so with the idea it was going to be used only on plots where a GM would oviously be at. Over time it has turned into sages comming to NPC camp. I would have voted it down knowing that was going to happen. That said I think it adds something to the game, but really needs to be used in a way that keeps people in game.

My Sugegstion:
you get your sage hint first while a GM is around, and then go RP for 15 minutes. If that is not possible, then RP, and say that your vision directs you to speak to (make something up) Then lead a group of people on a journey (look you created a plot) that ends at NPC camp where you ask your question. You can have people wait outside as you consult the wise sage. You don't have to travel right to NPC camp, you can create a plot. You can turn a mechanic into something. Now that in my opinion is cool and is worth 50 bucks

[dier_cire]

that's why I don't take skills that require role-playing. RPing is for losers.

seconded

Now beating RPers with foam weapons is t3h c00l (the cool for those unable to read 1337 ). lol.

[Adam]

So, basiclly what is being said is that Sages have no knowledge of their own, they have to get all of it from an "outside source" at NPC camp. I thought that was what Research was for?

(Yes by the way, I really do exist. This is also for those that have been looking for me for a while)

[dier_cire]

using SG-1 as an example:

maybe they have to get a book from "the library" that is NPC camp (ala Daniel). Perhaps an herb to help them enter their trance state (ala Teal'c). Perhaps an widget to add to their gizmo (ala Sam). etc.

Perhaps they forgot a pen to write down details as they have a bad memory.

They can have knowledge on their own, but if an npc isn't readily available, something (up to the player) interferes with the final result until they go to NPC camp (which is whatever indestructable building, object, location, device, etc you want it to be) or find an NPC (ie if they meet one at the door, maybe said item was in their pocket and just happened to find it).

[Adam]

The GM's, for the most part, are the ones that have access to the hints (sometimes they are not even in written form, just in the heads of the plot writers). So, most every time the Sage(s) are working on a hint, they have to come up with an excuse to "wander around to find the clue/item"? I just don't get it.

maybe they have to get a book from "the library" that is NPC camp (ala Daniel). Perhaps an herb to help them enter their trance state (ala Teal'c). Perhaps an widget to add to their gizmo (ala Sam).

None of these examples necessarily mean danger to the characters, but it would at FH. The book could be at SG Command, the herb in his room, and the widget for the gizmo be made by another team. Traveling to NPC camp for the clues MEANS potential combat for non combat situations.

[cole45]

"Traveling to NPC camp for the clues MEANS potential combat for non combat situations."

This is bad why?

[Wyrmwrath]

By the way... I get sick of this so-called excuse "there is no out-of-game". I can understand when it's used as courtesy excuse when you slip on knowing what is IC and what is OOC.
However, it's thrown around to explain everything, almost to the point that it's funny. If everything was under the "there is no Out of Game" clause, then we would be doing REAL damage, using REAL weapons and there would be NO magic/monsters/etc. All items would have to be REAL, not just "physically represented" because that's just an out-of-game excuse as for why those aren't there. Everything that has to be "physically represented" by deffinition is OOG when you have to pretend to believe something is other than what it really is. Skills and abilities and actions that require OOG rules and conduct in order to exist and take effect is OOG. So please, stop using "there is no Out Of Game" as a blanket argument. You'd be out of a LOT of NPC players if those people had to remain playing dead, imprisoned or otherwise "there" individuals, plus we'd gack and capture up the GMs as prisoners and then who would run the plots?

You are confusing OOG and OOC

the rules are out of character, because the game is simulating an environment using the OOC rules that the GMs wrote up, but they areant OOG.

A person that makes a comment about how cool somones costume is may be making an OOC comment, but still be IN GAME

when Phil used a large building to filet his own scalp, he wasnt just OOC...he was OOG.

OOC means something that isnt part of life on phantara

OOG means something not related to or interacting with the game we are playing. If something is OOG its automaticly OOC, but not always the other way around.

The line between them isnt very wide but there is a difference...the rules are OOC but cant be OOG, however a RULE BOOK is both OOC AND OOG; since it isnt a prop/physrep AND is not part of the game world.

[Torakhan]

Traveling to NPC camp for the clues MEANS potential combat for non combat situations.

... not to mention going TO the source of the enemy encounters.

But.. whatever. Like I said before.. If I don't like it, nothing is forcing me to go be a part of something I don't enjoy. It's not a threat. I'm not going to try to pretend like I have any sway in the matter where the GMs have made up their minds... that's their duty. And if I like or don't like how a game is going I give my approval or dissaproval with my attendance. And that's how any game goes, regardless of if it's a LARP, tabletop or even sports.

[Adam]

This is bad why?

This means that every sage hint is a (potential) combat situation for what are essentially non-combat characters. This means that all sages would need to rely on warriors to safely get their sage hints?

[Donovan Thynedar]

I think what we need here is a clarification of intent. For the purposes of this post I'm going to say that anything that causes an OOG or OOC situation does Immersion Damage or ID.

Is the necessity of the Sages walking to NPC camp:

-A side effect of the fact that the hints are with the GM's and they are physically at NPC camp.

OR

-A element of the game/skill mechanics designed to make the Sages walk around and get into trouble.

OR

-Some unfortunate combination or evolution of both of the previous points.

OR

-Something else entirely.

IF it is just a side effect, THAN I'd suggest looking into a way (perm NPC in town, honor box, walkie-talkies, etc.) to lessen the ID caused by Sages having to hike to NPC camp to do something they can accomplish on their own. In the meantime, I'd have to consider the comparitive ID of going OOG vs. not going OOG. Going OOG could create a botched ambush, a missed attack, and the dreaded "are you in-game" question. Not going OOG could result in character deaths and non-combat players wanting to re-write their characters.

IF it is a designed element, THAN it needs to be clarified and stated better in the skill description. It is an opportunity for roleplay and conflict, but people should know what they're getting into.

IF it is an evolution or combination, THAN I'd say the GM's need to set their priorities.

IF it is something else entirely, THAN I have no clue what to do about it.

Personally, I don't mind the occasional person who is OOG for a legitimate reason. It's something we have to deal with, but I certainly agree that it needs to be minimized. I also think there are plenty of ways for the GM's endanger the Sages without forcing a mechanic into the roleplaying.

In my experience you can't think up a desired effect, design a mechanic to achieve it, and then force the roleplaying to work around it. I've had much more success thinking up a desired effect, finding an in-game element that could make it work and then crafting the mechanic to represent the in-game element. I don't know if that helps, but there it is.

[GM-Mike]

A certain Shakespeare title keeps floating to my mind, but I'll leave it to you literary types to figure out which one.

Let me say a couple of things. I cannot remember a sage dying on the way to or from getting a hint. I seem to remember Eilonwy in danger one time in the what, five years? six? that we've been doing this.

At least at Rota-Kiwan, NPC camp is not that far away. Any active fighting going on could be seen or heard, signifying caution and also signifying the NPCs are probably busy at the moment and you should wait anyway. The odds of you being ambushed by one of our five NPC's who don't have the time to be wandering monsters and are most likely on plots far away so as to not interfere with people not on that particular plot is...small to say the least. The odds of you dying from this encounter are even smaller unless, again, all five of our NPC's are simply hiding in the woods on the road to NPC camp hoping for a Sage to walk that path so that we can completely surround the poor sap and kill him/her right there with ever growing smiles upon our sick sadistic faces to teach a lesson to all sages who have the gall of asking for hints that we may or may not have written...COME ON!

The facts to me are pretty simple. One, walking oog does cause immersion damage and it gets really dicey if a player was going to ambush another player, only to find out that that character was really out of game. Maybe they should have seen the hand over the head. Maybe they should have known the high flashlight was not someone trying to cast a larger beam over the night but was their way of saying, I'm out of game, but they didn't and now they're pissed and now the player knows that that other player was evil and even if he is going to not use that information, it's still there in the back of his head and he simply never acts the same ever again around that character and simply waits, waits, waits until he can uncover amazingly superficial evidence to prove that that character was evil...THIS IS NOT A HYPOTHETICAL. This is the kind of thing that would happen at CARPS back in the day. Having no OOG solves this problem.

So, what to do? We try and have plots flowing to both pc camps with regularity (some events we are more successful than others). The Sage could wait. You can work on several things at once if you want, stockpiling hints until an NPC walks through your door and at some point, when it is nondisurptive, approach the NPC for hints. Alternatively, you could walk in game to NPC camp, and I have to add (and this is not to be mean and this is not to discourage anyone from not playing--I certainly want everyone there) but if you cannot handle the one time in six years chance of danger, if that extremely small but realistic chance of getting hit for one, maybe two damage before fleeing (and possibly fleeing to NPC camp where we have never attacked anyone) really detracts from your LARPing experience to the degree that you are willing to quit the game over it, then maybe Final Haven is not for you.

[Wyrmwrath]

A certain Shakespeare title keeps floating to my mind, but I'll leave it to you literary types to figure out which one.

Uhm...Taming of the Shrew?? Othello?? Debbi does Dallas??

[dier_cire]

*is still wondering why no plots entered the keep on Saturday of last event*

[GM-Mike]

COUGH COUGH BASTARD COUGH