Skill use.

Lao · Post by **Lao** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:33 pm

One idea that I suggested to NPC camp at the game was the idea of defining all skills as passive or active skills.

This would make it a lot easier to determine which skills work in conjunction with each other. According to the rage skill no skills can be used along with it. So this means a knight who rages losses the extra life point, and the warriors lose their armor points from utilize armor, and it means they cant use determination etc etc. To me it seems obvious that some of these things should still be active when rage is on, but which ones is the question.

If all skills got defined as passive (meaning always on) or active (meaning take an activation declaration, or LP expenditure or casting time, or babble speech) it would make rage much easier to define.

Simply say when rage is on all active skills no longer work, unless otherwise noted in the skill description.

This is the only example I can think of immediately where this would be helpful, but im sure there are others.

I went ahead and did a break down of what I thought was passive and active skills for FH to try and save the GM's some time.

Warrior
Determination = Passive
Utilize Armor = Passive
Hold Ground = Active
Endurance = Passive
Defensive Matrix = Active
Parry = Active
Rage = Active

Empath
Transference = Active
Channel = active
Sense Magic = Active
Cause fear = Active
Cause sleep = Active

Rogue:
Backstab = Active
Spot = Passive
Pick locks = Active
Traps = Active for setting, passive for disarming
Barter = Passive
Nerve Pinch = Active

Sage:
Read Language = passive
Research = Active
Intuition = Passive
Tactics = Active
Recognition = Passive
Defiance = Active
Mimic = Active
Exploit Weakness = Active

Healer
First aid = Active
Healing = Active
Extend life = Active
Cure Disease = Active
ok...all the healer stuff looks active to me.

Paths:
Arcane: Um everything woudl be active I think

Alchemist: Active while brewing, passive while waiting for potion to finish mixing.

Archer:
Use bow: Passive
Magic Arrow: Passive
True shot: Active
Critical Shot: Active

Assassin:
Disguise: Active while putting on, passive once disguised
Use Poison: Passive
Passwall: Active
Touch of Death: Active

Barbarian:
Regenerate: passive
Harden skin: Passive
Fear: Active
Crush: Active

Beast hunter:
Wilderness survival: Passive
Set wilderness traps: Active
Fear: Active
Weapon Focus: Passive

Buerucrat:
Allegiance: Passive
Leadership: Passive
Split Allegiance: Passive
Support: Passive

Craftsman:
Repair: Active
Make Items: Active

Druid:
Wilderness Survival: Passive
Move freely: Passive
Magic Root: Active
Emulate totem: Active

Eater of the dead
Disease Immunity: Passive
Consume Brain: Active
Consume Flesh: Active
Consume Heart: Active

Interrogator:
Inescapable bonds: Active
Detect Lie: Not sure here.
Interrogate: Active
Plant Suggestion: Active

Knight:
Vigor: Passive
Resist Fear: Active
Utilize Armor: Passive
Weapon focus: Passive

Man at arms:
Press: Active
Resist fear: Active
Resist sleep: Active
Shield: Passive

Monk:
Ambidexterity: Passive
Iron Fists: Passive
Block arrows: Passive
Meditate: Active

Pikeman:
Press: Active
Vigor: Passive
Impale: Active
Weapon focus: Passive

Scout:
Wilderness survival: Passive
Set Snares: Active
Haven: Active while setting it up, Passive once setup.
Flee: Active

Spy:
Escape Artist: Active
Disguise: Active
Track allegiance: Passive
Slander: Active

Swashbuckler:
Taunt: Active
Florentine: Passive
Disarm: Active
Vorpal: Active

Undead Slayer:
Enchant Weapon: Active
Repel Undead: Active
Banish: Active
Weapon Focus: Passive

Warlord:
Allegiance: Passive
Warcry: Active
Harden skin: Passive
Leadership: Passive

Witch Hunter:
Enchant Weapon: Active
Vigor: Passive
Disenchant: Active
Resist Magic: Passive???

These are just some ideas that I think could really help clarify a lot of confusions with rulings.

Evan

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:35 pm

This has been brought up many, many, many times. good luck with it. Easier concept is to just state which skills may be used with rage.

Crush, Vorpal, Utilize Armor, Weapon Focus, Vigor, Enchant Weapon, Harden Skin, Florentine, Ambedexterity, Shield, Move Freely, Disease Immunity, Regenerate, Disguise (obviously only once the hour is over).

Unfortunately, the active idea while good gets screwed when considering archer. They can't be used with rage yet are not all active either. Clear doesn't always need three pages per skill.

Lao · Post by **Lao** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:42 pm

Once you have it defined you can then use that in creating spells, potions, etc etc. The implications of defining the skills are far more broad then just the rage skill.

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:50 pm

Then simply stated, remove crush, weapon focus and vorpal and poof there's the list of skills that don't go away when doing a counted action. Much smaller and easier to deal with. Again, a list is easier and requires less work.

Todd · Post by **Todd** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 4:35 pm

OK, at a glance it makes sense to just put in a list. But the more I think about it the more I think the Active/Passive thing is the way to go. The reason for this is when/if we add new Paths, Disciplines, Hidden Disciplines, etc. we dont have to ammend the list, just make the new rule 'Active' or 'Passive'.

Lao · Post by **Lao** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 4:53 pm

You dont even make it a list. You just modify each skill in the rulebook so after the skill name it says Passive or Active. I made it a list because it would be easier then copying and pasting in 10 pages from the rulebook.

Here is an example of what I mean:

Warrior Path
The Warrior Path is one of physical conflict. Warriors can be strong or quick, friendly or cruel, but they share certain traits in common. They are meant for combat, for the fierce exhilaration of face-to-face conflict and those of the warrior path generally have an innate distrust for the doings of magic…it just seems like cheating.
A warrior will gain 7 life points by the time they reach level 10. The warrior has no armor restrictions.

Basic Level

Determination (Passive)
This skill allows you to not fall unconscious when you go below one hit point (see combat section). Instead, you can crawl and drink potions. You cannot wield a weapon, use any skills, or defend against any killing blows.

Utilize armor (Passive)
A warrior knows how to take blows better than others, thus making him/herself tougher to take down. This gives the warrior one point of Harden Skin. Additionally, if the warrior is wearing medium armor, he or she gains 1 extra armor point. If the warrior is wearing heavy armor, he or she gains 2 extra armor points. Note: The extra armor points do not stack with one another (so max per level is 1 harden skin plus 2 armor points)..

Hold Ground (Active)
While holding ground you cannot move. When you initiate hold ground you gain 10LP, and all effects that deal damage to the front of you are reduced to 1 point. This damage is taken off your armor first. In addition, fear, sleep and press do not effect you; instead you take one damage, which is also taken off your armor first. Note that attacks from the rear affect you as they normally would. At the end of hold ground, you are reduced to zero life points.

Hey look. No listed added to the rulebook, just one word added after the skill name and its all done nice and neat.

Tonia Glowski · Post by **Tonia Glowski** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:09 am

With all due respect, this seems to complicate the system more for very little reward.

The simplicity of rules is one of the most appealling features of Final Haven. I hope that plot doesn't make the mistake that every LARP seems to (including my own) and that is letting rules and skills get away from you because you overcomplicate it with some perceived edge or advantage.

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:34 am

Agreed. The reason having a simple small list for the 3 or 4 skills this matters to is nice is because the person doesn't have to read each skill to figure out whether they can or cannot use it. Just here's the skill and if you have one of these skills they work with it, otherwise nothing does. Makes for very fast referencing.

Post by **Kale** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:36 am

Ok, what I don't get is that I think what Evan is suggesting isn't a change, just a clarification so that people don't have to guess.

Nelkie · Post by **Nelkie** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:46 am

What Evan is suggestion is just a clarification. But a simple paragraph in the book can do the same thing.

If you have to spend time to activate or spend life to use a skill, it is considered active. You can only have 1 active skill going at 1 time unless stated differently in the skill, spell, alchemy, or effect description. All other skills are considered passive and can be used at any time unless stated other wise by a skill, potion, spell, or effect. Simple and clarifies the problem.

The only active skills combo's that I'm aware of is rage & vorpal or crush.

What do people think?

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:05 am

And the archer skills...

Tonia Glowski · Post by **Tonia Glowski** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:17 am

I understand that defining and labeling something as "active" or "passive" may allow a skill, like "Rage" to make sense as far as when you can use it and when you can't. However, Reid is more on target in my opinion - make a list of what you can't use, and it's a whole lot simpler.

Evan goes on to say:

"Once you have it defined you can then use that in creating spells, potions, etc etc. The implications of defining the skills are far more broad then just the rage skill."

This, to me, sounds like a complication. Now, I've got to remember what's active, what's passive, which spells or potions apply to which, etc. Please don't get me wrong, I feel this could add in some ways to the current system, but I know that temptation and I know its pitfalls. The question has to be this: "Do any changes really make the system THAT MUCH BETTER versus the possible confusion and complication (especially for newbies)?" I'd say no in this case. Stick with the status quo.

Post by **Kale** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:19 am

See, thing is though, you don't have remember what ALL is active/passive, cause you only have so many skills. Max # of skills anyone is ever gonna have is what? 18-20? If you have like 4 Active skills and 14 Passive....

*shrug*

Tonia Glowski · Post by **Tonia Glowski** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:29 am

Why?

Why add it at all? Does it really benefit the system that much? So far, according to what I have seen here, I'd say no.

Brad and Evan - us 3, and several others here have experience in building game systems and/or running them. We have to recognize two things:

#1 - Builders never know when to stop. It's an art just like everything else, but like the old addage: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

#2 - This isn't our system. We should refrain as much as possible from trying to put our own spin on it. I've had a very rough time, trying not to suggest things myself (not because the system is wanting).

But ultimately if anyone wants to suggest changes, they really should go back to the litmus test of:

"Do any changes really make the system THAT MUCH BETTER versus the possible confusion and complication (especially for newbies)?"

Brad, your "14 skills active and 4 skills passive" is hella complicated for someone new to LARPing and even possibly someone new to FH. It doesn't make things that much better and risks losing people's interest in the game system.

Post by **Kale** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:38 am

For someone new to the LARP it would be more like:

2 Active Skills
3 Passive Skills

We can list what you cannot use for those skills I spose.

Does this mean though that I can rage, and Read/Write Elven?

Skill use.

Skill use.

I see