Copied from Carapice thread.
My thoughts are leaning to, and others have mentioned, that...
yes the Sage is strong between events (via research), and they can do puzzles etc. (via Hints), but in the short term they fall behind. Its almost as if they exist only to assist the other Characters (Paths), they give info others can use, they give buffs others can use. I was just thinking that maybe we could come up with something that they could do to help themselves, more than others.
We may not end up changing anything, but it would be nice to bat some ideas around.
~fin~
Sage, split topic
Moderator: Admin
-
Kale
- Site Admin
- Posts: 236
- Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 9:07 am
- Location: lurking in the shadows
- Contact:
Who said anything about combat bonuses?I think sage is pretty cool as is. Honestly, who else gets hints solving plots, research between events, can speak every known language? Why should he get combat bonuses?
Sage's usefulness last event:
Cool if you can figure out what to talk about for 15-45 minutes I started having trouble after 5-10.
Research is neat, but this is an inbetween events thing, and NONE of us in two guilds could come up with a -single- thing to have either of two sages research. This is extremely useful!!!
Languages are cool, I spose. Have we found anything in another language at all?
Puzzle hints are cool, if there are puzzles.
Thing is, it takes an empath 10-30 seconds to give someone 1 life. It takes a Sage 15 minutes to give someone 1 life. I think the Sage is really cool, but the only thing I think is 'off' is the "storytelling time". I certainly don't think it should be 10-30 seconds, but I think 15 minutes per buff is a little excessive.
sages
What I would like to see for sage is there mimic skill be more usefull. It takes less time to power up and last longer and mimic more abilities. This would make sages more useful and very versitile. I think that would work well. Maybe cut the buffing time down to 10 minutes. Execpt for that I would keep it the same.
What makes the sage scary is they can don a suit of armor, grab a shield, and be a ok warrior.
What makes the sage scary is they can don a suit of armor, grab a shield, and be a ok warrior.
My Thoughts
Aaron
Aaron
idea
Here is another idea. Have the hint abilty look into the past and into the future. Be simliar to lore and sooth saying from Carps. Just an idea.
My Thoughts
Aaron
Aaron
I have to admit the mimic skill is quite cool. Watching Brad B. use healing during some of the combats was pretty nice (granted it only lasts a short time as Aaron pointed out). I think there isn't much I'd change about the path, since most events they are extremely useful. This one happened to be more geared for combat.
I thought that the master sage could confer all its bonuses in 15 mins as one bonus since you can only have 1 sage bonus on you at a time.
Evan had a good idea, let the sage mimic the first 2 levels of disciplines.
Sage isn't supposed to be a battle path, it will never be as effective in battle as warrior, empath or rogue but can be more effective in the fighting part than the healer.
Evan had a good idea, let the sage mimic the first 2 levels of disciplines.
Sage isn't supposed to be a battle path, it will never be as effective in battle as warrior, empath or rogue but can be more effective in the fighting part than the healer.
Death=Adder
One of these days...I'm going to cut you into little pieces...
~Pink Floyd~
One of these days...I'm going to cut you into little pieces...
~Pink Floyd~
This is just an idea, but how about allowing the sage to mimic more then one ability at a time?
If they are still limited to first level discipline powers and basic path's what is the most broken combo anyone can come up with if we say:
A) Sage can mimic 2 abilities at once?
B) Sage can mimic 3 abilities at once?
C) Sage can mimic up to 3 Levels of abilities at once (this would probably only work for disciplines but if they could mimic up to 3 levels of ability at a time then a sage could do for example: 1st level witch hunter to swing magic damage, Healer first aid, and warrior determination. Or they could do witch hunter 3rd level and swing magic damage, get +1 life, have access to disenchant).
Again these are just ideas being tossed out.
If they are still limited to first level discipline powers and basic path's what is the most broken combo anyone can come up with if we say:
A) Sage can mimic 2 abilities at once?
B) Sage can mimic 3 abilities at once?
C) Sage can mimic up to 3 Levels of abilities at once (this would probably only work for disciplines but if they could mimic up to 3 levels of ability at a time then a sage could do for example: 1st level witch hunter to swing magic damage, Healer first aid, and warrior determination. Or they could do witch hunter 3rd level and swing magic damage, get +1 life, have access to disenchant).
Again these are just ideas being tossed out.
Brad,
I was refering to the event being geared for combat characters. Course my post before refered to combat, but that's meerly due to hearing the term "making himself cooler, rather than buffing everyone else". I considered it as buffing himself.
Honestly, I don't see any need to change sage. The "speech" skills need clarifying that it's 15 minutes for all three, but other than that, he's extremely useful. This seems to be a knee jerk due to no puzzle plots coming in.
Do you have any idea how boring it is to play a combat character in the previous events that had some heavy puzzles? I was told to play my character differently if I didn't like it.
I was refering to the event being geared for combat characters. Course my post before refered to combat, but that's meerly due to hearing the term "making himself cooler, rather than buffing everyone else". I considered it as buffing himself.
Honestly, I don't see any need to change sage. The "speech" skills need clarifying that it's 15 minutes for all three, but other than that, he's extremely useful. This seems to be a knee jerk due to no puzzle plots coming in.
Do you have any idea how boring it is to play a combat character in the previous events that had some heavy puzzles? I was told to play my character differently if I didn't like it.
Last edited by dier_cire on Tue Jun 22, 2004 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Stuff
Sage rules:
Exploit Weakness
This skill takes an uninterrupted fifteen minutes to use. It works by you explaining the weaknesses enemies may have. You can effect up to as many people who can hear your voice. Everyone must listen to you for 15 minutes to gain one 5 damage melee attack. This bonus lasts until used. Exploit weakness gives one 5 damage melee attack . This skill can be used in conjunction with Tactics and Defiance.
With the wording "This skill can be used in conjunction with Tactics and Defiance." all three bonus can be given in 15 minutes. How do other people read it.
Exploit Weakness
This skill takes an uninterrupted fifteen minutes to use. It works by you explaining the weaknesses enemies may have. You can effect up to as many people who can hear your voice. Everyone must listen to you for 15 minutes to gain one 5 damage melee attack. This bonus lasts until used. Exploit weakness gives one 5 damage melee attack . This skill can be used in conjunction with Tactics and Defiance.
With the wording "This skill can be used in conjunction with Tactics and Defiance." all three bonus can be given in 15 minutes. How do other people read it.
My Thoughts
Aaron
Aaron
You may be correct that this is a kneejerk reaction to a low puzzle event but I really think that a slightly more broad approach to the sage wouldnt hurt the game. A creative warrior can be just as useful in a puzzle situation as a sage because it is less mechanic's inclined. However the reverse is not true as it is more mechanics inclined. Combat requires mechanics, solving puzzles does not.
While it is true that a sage has an advantage when confronted by a puzzle I dont think the characters focus should be puzzles and downtime.
Another point to consider is from what I have seen and from speaking the the NPC's and others the sage appears to be the least played character at FH. Healers and rogues seem to be very prevelant, with warriors and empaths coming next and the sage coming in last.
If the sage is so cool, why is it the least played?
Here are some ideas of why the sage is least played.
Read languages: This skill overall is pretty lame unless the GM's include more need for being able to read languages. Most of the populace of the world cant even read at all, and a great deal of the written works in the world have been destroyed. These things combine to make it neat but ultimately pretty useless.
Sage buffs: One full path sage +15 minutes of time = no need for other sages. These buffs also require that the sage babble for 15 minutes about one specific topic at the beginning levels. As you get to full path you can kinda switch it around to have your pep talk include all 3 things making it a little easier but there is still only so much to explain regarding goblin tactics and its kinda tough to stretch it out to 15 minutes.
Puzzle Hints: This is a really cool ability but I dont think a lot of the sages realize the versatility this has because of the wording. I used this skill at least 5 times last event just on saturday. So this one I blame on the sage players. I took a more broad approach to what is a puzzle and I think that is the key to this skill. For example: I just got this gem on a plot, hmm...well the puzzle is what does it do and does it have any signifagance. To me this was a puzzle so I went and used my sage ability on it and low and behold the GM's gave me answers. The same is true of the brand that was on the wolf, the poisoned arrows fired at the peasants,and the mysterious elf like archers in the woods. Overall the answers I got to my invesitgation were less then I had hoped for, but over time and continuing research it may pan out to something.
Research between events: To me this is the sages powerhouse skill. I had a list of stuff to research between events that went onto the back of my check out page. Most of these things I had to come up with on my own and didnt directly relate to any plots in play. Hey, thats cool by me cause I am really looking forward to see what the NPC's say about my research.
Mimic: This skill is very versatile which makes it cool. However it could be better. The fact that you must have witnessed the skill in the last 30 minutes and that it takes 15 minutes to use really limit what can be done with it. I already have some ideas of things I plan on doing with this skill but they will be difficult with those restrictions.
perhaps an idea for mimic would be to allow it to duplicate any basic path/1st level discipline skill witnessed during the event. That would really open up the doors for the sage with the mimic skill as friday night the run around making people show off their skills. It will also show how as the game progresses over the weekend the sage is learning by observation what is going on.
Another possiblity would be to move mimic to the 2nd rank of sage and put in advanced mimic at the highest level that lets the sage mimic multiple powers or higher level powers or lets them pick a certain number of powers they can mimic at anytime during the event very quickly. Kinda like I the sage is gonna study Dallid the healer so I can learn the best ways to do first aid. I would then be able to mimic first aid whenever I wanted during the event with only a couple minutes prep time or something like that.
Well thats it for me. I feel I have babbled way to long on this topic so If I missed anything Im sorry.
Later,
Evan
While it is true that a sage has an advantage when confronted by a puzzle I dont think the characters focus should be puzzles and downtime.
Another point to consider is from what I have seen and from speaking the the NPC's and others the sage appears to be the least played character at FH. Healers and rogues seem to be very prevelant, with warriors and empaths coming next and the sage coming in last.
If the sage is so cool, why is it the least played?
Here are some ideas of why the sage is least played.
Read languages: This skill overall is pretty lame unless the GM's include more need for being able to read languages. Most of the populace of the world cant even read at all, and a great deal of the written works in the world have been destroyed. These things combine to make it neat but ultimately pretty useless.
Sage buffs: One full path sage +15 minutes of time = no need for other sages. These buffs also require that the sage babble for 15 minutes about one specific topic at the beginning levels. As you get to full path you can kinda switch it around to have your pep talk include all 3 things making it a little easier but there is still only so much to explain regarding goblin tactics and its kinda tough to stretch it out to 15 minutes.
Puzzle Hints: This is a really cool ability but I dont think a lot of the sages realize the versatility this has because of the wording. I used this skill at least 5 times last event just on saturday. So this one I blame on the sage players. I took a more broad approach to what is a puzzle and I think that is the key to this skill. For example: I just got this gem on a plot, hmm...well the puzzle is what does it do and does it have any signifagance. To me this was a puzzle so I went and used my sage ability on it and low and behold the GM's gave me answers. The same is true of the brand that was on the wolf, the poisoned arrows fired at the peasants,and the mysterious elf like archers in the woods. Overall the answers I got to my invesitgation were less then I had hoped for, but over time and continuing research it may pan out to something.
Research between events: To me this is the sages powerhouse skill. I had a list of stuff to research between events that went onto the back of my check out page. Most of these things I had to come up with on my own and didnt directly relate to any plots in play. Hey, thats cool by me cause I am really looking forward to see what the NPC's say about my research.
Mimic: This skill is very versatile which makes it cool. However it could be better. The fact that you must have witnessed the skill in the last 30 minutes and that it takes 15 minutes to use really limit what can be done with it. I already have some ideas of things I plan on doing with this skill but they will be difficult with those restrictions.
perhaps an idea for mimic would be to allow it to duplicate any basic path/1st level discipline skill witnessed during the event. That would really open up the doors for the sage with the mimic skill as friday night the run around making people show off their skills. It will also show how as the game progresses over the weekend the sage is learning by observation what is going on.
Another possiblity would be to move mimic to the 2nd rank of sage and put in advanced mimic at the highest level that lets the sage mimic multiple powers or higher level powers or lets them pick a certain number of powers they can mimic at anytime during the event very quickly. Kinda like I the sage is gonna study Dallid the healer so I can learn the best ways to do first aid. I would then be able to mimic first aid whenever I wanted during the event with only a couple minutes prep time or something like that.
Well thats it for me. I feel I have babbled way to long on this topic so If I missed anything Im sorry.
Later,
Evan
-
Kale
- Site Admin
- Posts: 236
- Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 9:07 am
- Location: lurking in the shadows
- Contact:
I am not sure how you can really read it like that. If it is supposed to read like that, then why not just have it give the resist and 1 life or 2 armor and say it overrides tactics/defiance?
"This skill can be used in conjunction with Tactics and Defiance"
I read that as "This skill is cool, and you can have it as well as the other two speeches. You know how the one speech doesn't let you have have both 1 life and 2 armor, it's one or the other, well you can gain the benefits of all three of these speeches."
If all three benefits are gained in one 15 minute speech, that's cool. If it is a 45 minute speech...well......
15 minutes is tough enough As an arcane it's not that bad, cause you can just sit there and babble incoherently, but as a Sage doing a speech you actually have to try to make sense. 
"This skill can be used in conjunction with Tactics and Defiance"
I read that as "This skill is cool, and you can have it as well as the other two speeches. You know how the one speech doesn't let you have have both 1 life and 2 armor, it's one or the other, well you can gain the benefits of all three of these speeches."
If all three benefits are gained in one 15 minute speech, that's cool. If it is a 45 minute speech...well......
15 minutes is tough enough
As an arcane it's not that bad, cause you can just sit there and babble incoherently, but as a Sage doing a speech you actually have to try to make sense. Brad,
Dictionary verbage says it's all at the same time. Gaining the benefits from the skill does not mean you are using it. I may have a 5 damage swing but I never use Tactics (or whatever skill it is). The sage used the skill in conjunction (ie at the exact same time) with the other two. It is poorly written, however, since people can consider having the boon as using the skill.
Evan,
As far as a warrior being good at puzzles, that's true, but at the same time, a sage could be just as good a warrior in combat. Both are based on player skill not rules. I'd consider that a wash. Plus, as you pointed out, the hint thing can be very useful (I remember having to sit there and listen to Kelly and Mike going over and over some of the plots with the runes and crap)
With, mimic, I could see increasing the time some, maybe to 4-6 hours or so? Allows them to forget things they may have seen the day before. During a whole event would end up with the mimic having most of the useful skills by Saturday afternoon, so basically they'd just have a skill of their choice each event.
Dictionary verbage says it's all at the same time. Gaining the benefits from the skill does not mean you are using it. I may have a 5 damage swing but I never use Tactics (or whatever skill it is). The sage used the skill in conjunction (ie at the exact same time) with the other two. It is poorly written, however, since people can consider having the boon as using the skill.
Evan,
As far as a warrior being good at puzzles, that's true, but at the same time, a sage could be just as good a warrior in combat. Both are based on player skill not rules. I'd consider that a wash. Plus, as you pointed out, the hint thing can be very useful (I remember having to sit there and listen to Kelly and Mike going over and over some of the plots with the runes and crap)
With, mimic, I could see increasing the time some, maybe to 4-6 hours or so? Allows them to forget things they may have seen the day before. During a whole event would end up with the mimic having most of the useful skills by Saturday afternoon, so basically they'd just have a skill of their choice each event.