A Question about Armor
Moderator: Admin
I have worn full plate. I have worn chain. I have worn chain with hardned leather on top. I have worn chain with plate.
They are about equivalant.
The problem here is you are thinking in terms of being screwed and Min MAx.
If I want to think that way then why do you get heavy armor and Dueger got heavy armor. I mean seriously the crap I wore as Dueger was another 10 to 20 pounds heavier than what you wear. Why am I getting screwed!
I think what is bothering you is you think I am advocating a possible armor combo that may infact weigh less than what you are wearing and be more flexable. I assure you that I am advocating something that is probably has a greater encombrance.
They are about equivalant.
The problem here is you are thinking in terms of being screwed and Min MAx.
If I want to think that way then why do you get heavy armor and Dueger got heavy armor. I mean seriously the crap I wore as Dueger was another 10 to 20 pounds heavier than what you wear. Why am I getting screwed!
I think what is bothering you is you think I am advocating a possible armor combo that may infact weigh less than what you are wearing and be more flexable. I assure you that I am advocating something that is probably has a greater encombrance.
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
You get screwed because realistically chain and leather are less effective as armor than plates. It's a lot easier to poke a hole in leather than metal. Flexiable metal is less protective than non-flexiable. If you stop getting screwed then someone like Fesko gets more hosed.
As for your weight, I'm sure a steel chain shirt covering arms and down to mid thigh weighs more than mine. It's at least twice the coverage area.
As for min/maxing, you started topic to support a change so your costume gets heavy. If you weren't trying to min/max, why would you care?
As for your weight, I'm sure a steel chain shirt covering arms and down to mid thigh weighs more than mine. It's at least twice the coverage area.
As for min/maxing, you started topic to support a change so your costume gets heavy. If you weren't trying to min/max, why would you care?
My posts in no way reflect that of anyone else nor are they in any way official.
I felt the need to add something.
Eric, I would not post on a public forum to try and change the rules for a character I may never played. I have always talked about playing, but have yet progressed a character through any game I created. Now if I really wanted to change the rules for my own character then please understand, as a creator of the game, I would take it private to the GM board and never come out on this board.
When I first made the post Cole told me it was Heavy. The rules actually give me heavy. The problem is we now have dissagreement and I assumed whern I made a post you rule people would dissagree which is why I made the post. Now if people dissagree then we have a problem with are rule system since it is either too strict or not strict enough.
What we need in a rule system is to encourage coolness while not giving a bunch of points just because someone has alot of money to spend.
What I want to hear from is Doug. Hopw is fesco and yourself screwed if the costume I mentioned gets heavy? From what I can tell is the one I am looking at costs more that either of yours, it weighs more, and is probably more restrictive in movement. So are you saying if you new that we allowed it to be heavy then you would have gone that route?
Eric, I would not post on a public forum to try and change the rules for a character I may never played. I have always talked about playing, but have yet progressed a character through any game I created. Now if I really wanted to change the rules for my own character then please understand, as a creator of the game, I would take it private to the GM board and never come out on this board.
When I first made the post Cole told me it was Heavy. The rules actually give me heavy. The problem is we now have dissagreement and I assumed whern I made a post you rule people would dissagree which is why I made the post. Now if people dissagree then we have a problem with are rule system since it is either too strict or not strict enough.
What we need in a rule system is to encourage coolness while not giving a bunch of points just because someone has alot of money to spend.
What I want to hear from is Doug. Hopw is fesco and yourself screwed if the costume I mentioned gets heavy? From what I can tell is the one I am looking at costs more that either of yours, it weighs more, and is probably more restrictive in movement. So are you saying if you new that we allowed it to be heavy then you would have gone that route?
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
-
Donovan Thynedar
- Town Member
- Posts: 628
- Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:18 am
- Location: With his beloved at the end of all things.
- Contact:
I don't think anyone wants to see an additional armor category beyond heavy, so we're left to assign the current armor types to one of three categories. The light armor category is pretty well established (padded or soft leather) and reinforced/hardened leather is solidly in medium. Plate obviously belongs in heavy, so we're left with chain.
I think the real question is "What is more important for the game, increasing access to the Heavy armor category for all players or creating an exclusive reward for those who go out of their way to acquire Plate armor?"
What we cannot do is make a decision that just shifts the burden. If we say that chain is heavy then the min-maxers will say "Then why bother with plate when we could just wear chain?". If we say chain is medium, then min-maxers will say "Why bother with Chain when we could just wear reinforced/hardened leather?"
If we make different rewards for different armor types our priority, then we're looking at one of two scenarios, either increasing the top end or moving up the bottom end. Personally I don't like either of those, but that's because I don't think that different rewards should be our priority.
I'd say our priorities should be rewarding good costuming and encouraging real armor. The current system accomplishes that, and if we give players additional options that will still get them the coveted heavy armor status, they're more likely to get real armor.
I would also advocate an "exceptional" armor/costume bonus. It could read something like this:
In addition to the stated armor/costume rules, the gamemasters may deem a character's armor/costume "exceptional" and award the armor/costume additional in-game benefits. Those benefits may include, but are not limited to, addtitional armor points, additional combat reflexes, additional life points, and repair considerations.
The armor categories would be set and accessable, the players who go above and beyond have a means of being compensated, the rules lawyers have something in print, and the gamemasters can reward the costumes they feel are worthy.
What it doesn't do is allow the min-maxers to do all their math. They wouldn't know who received what exceptional bonus, nor would they be absolutely certain what exeptional bonus they were going to receive. One or two points of mystery in an otherwise stable system would mean they wouldn't be able to calculate someone's total soak by looking at them. They would have to put together the best costume they could and just do their best to guestimate how hardy their PC foe might be...
...and I, for one, am fine with that. God forbid someone have to put their calculator down and actually roleplay for a while.
I think the real question is "What is more important for the game, increasing access to the Heavy armor category for all players or creating an exclusive reward for those who go out of their way to acquire Plate armor?"
What we cannot do is make a decision that just shifts the burden. If we say that chain is heavy then the min-maxers will say "Then why bother with plate when we could just wear chain?". If we say chain is medium, then min-maxers will say "Why bother with Chain when we could just wear reinforced/hardened leather?"
If we make different rewards for different armor types our priority, then we're looking at one of two scenarios, either increasing the top end or moving up the bottom end. Personally I don't like either of those, but that's because I don't think that different rewards should be our priority.
I'd say our priorities should be rewarding good costuming and encouraging real armor. The current system accomplishes that, and if we give players additional options that will still get them the coveted heavy armor status, they're more likely to get real armor.
I would also advocate an "exceptional" armor/costume bonus. It could read something like this:
In addition to the stated armor/costume rules, the gamemasters may deem a character's armor/costume "exceptional" and award the armor/costume additional in-game benefits. Those benefits may include, but are not limited to, addtitional armor points, additional combat reflexes, additional life points, and repair considerations.
The armor categories would be set and accessable, the players who go above and beyond have a means of being compensated, the rules lawyers have something in print, and the gamemasters can reward the costumes they feel are worthy.
What it doesn't do is allow the min-maxers to do all their math. They wouldn't know who received what exceptional bonus, nor would they be absolutely certain what exeptional bonus they were going to receive. One or two points of mystery in an otherwise stable system would mean they wouldn't be able to calculate someone's total soak by looking at them. They would have to put together the best costume they could and just do their best to guestimate how hardy their PC foe might be...
...and I, for one, am fine with that. God forbid someone have to put their calculator down and actually roleplay for a while.
One should rather die than be betrayed. There is no deceit in death. It delivers precisely what it has promised. Betrayal, though ... betrayal is the willful slaughter of hope.
-
Wylen Thorburn
Not sure I have seen it. "15 oz hard leather double over scale "
Is this like my Tearin scale? Basically is it cut out hardened leather pieces scaled on top of one another? Then you have some chain along the sides and legs but no where else?
Good post Tak! That articulates what I am struggling with.
When I started looking at the ideal costume for my dwarf I was unsure what I would give it, especially if I went with alluminum.
I know alluminum chain would get medium
I know hardened leather would get medium
I know that poly armor would get fake hard.
I know the GM's in private, well most of them, talked about armor stacking.
I made this post beause I knew it would cause a good debate.
Anyways, I actually like the exceptional thing because it gives me the flexability that I am looking for, but I do not think it can happen without examples of what is "exceptional"
I was not looking to change any rules per say, but I did want to take pictures of people and post them on the website in an armor FAQ with examples of different armor catagories. We could then even list the ones we thought were "exceptional" or if there are no "exceptional" armor in game have an artist rendar one.
-Chris
Is this like my Tearin scale? Basically is it cut out hardened leather pieces scaled on top of one another? Then you have some chain along the sides and legs but no where else?
Good post Tak! That articulates what I am struggling with.
When I started looking at the ideal costume for my dwarf I was unsure what I would give it, especially if I went with alluminum.
I know alluminum chain would get medium
I know hardened leather would get medium
I know that poly armor would get fake hard.
I know the GM's in private, well most of them, talked about armor stacking.
I made this post beause I knew it would cause a good debate.
Anyways, I actually like the exceptional thing because it gives me the flexability that I am looking for, but I do not think it can happen without examples of what is "exceptional"
I was not looking to change any rules per say, but I did want to take pictures of people and post them on the website in an armor FAQ with examples of different armor catagories. We could then even list the ones we thought were "exceptional" or if there are no "exceptional" armor in game have an artist rendar one.
-Chris
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
Shane,
I think your pugo armour would be heavy because it was real chain combined with 15oz leather. The real chain alone puts it solid into the heavy catagory. I have to say, your pugo armour is some of the best player made armour I have seen in ours or any game.
I think your pugo armour would be heavy because it was real chain combined with 15oz leather. The real chain alone puts it solid into the heavy catagory. I have to say, your pugo armour is some of the best player made armour I have seen in ours or any game.
Wayne O
The Game Master Lite
Frag the weak, Hurdle the dead!
The Game Master Lite
Frag the weak, Hurdle the dead!
I (obviously) am not in favor of subjective armor mainly due to the inability to calculate any numbers when looking at other players. If I want to grab the most heavily armored group, I'd have to ask an oog question every time to find that out, which seems dumb.
Shane, I can't recall your armor off hand. From Wayne's post, I'd guess the chain is tight enough to be considered heavy. Since Wayne's the only one who somewhat quantified the heavy vs medium chain before, I'd have to agree.
Now, as for rules modifications, I'm thinking why not just make chain medium, but add chain with hardened leather to heavy? Personally, I don't care too much about this (though I'm not in favor), as I'd have no reason to go that route. Or add a genreal rule of if you where two layers of different types (ie not hardened leather over hardened leather) within the same category, your total category goes up one.
This way, you and Shane get your heavy, and I'm only moderately annoyed.
I still think that the fact that no one wants to be "that guy in the cardboard" ultimately factors in more than anything else in terms of costuming more than any bonus. Hell, I'm ashamed of my leg plates, and my helm needs a makeover.
Shane, I can't recall your armor off hand. From Wayne's post, I'd guess the chain is tight enough to be considered heavy. Since Wayne's the only one who somewhat quantified the heavy vs medium chain before, I'd have to agree.
Now, as for rules modifications, I'm thinking why not just make chain medium, but add chain with hardened leather to heavy? Personally, I don't care too much about this (though I'm not in favor), as I'd have no reason to go that route. Or add a genreal rule of if you where two layers of different types (ie not hardened leather over hardened leather) within the same category, your total category goes up one.
This way, you and Shane get your heavy, and I'm only moderately annoyed.
I still think that the fact that no one wants to be "that guy in the cardboard" ultimately factors in more than anything else in terms of costuming more than any bonus. Hell, I'm ashamed of my leg plates, and my helm needs a makeover.
My posts in no way reflect that of anyone else nor are they in any way official.
I agree wit this
"Now, as for rules modifications, I'm thinking why not just make chain medium, but add chain with hardened leather to heavy"
this makes ALL chain medium, easier to deal with. and adds an easy way to get chain + leather into heavy.
(of course I could go for putting all CHain in heavy. that would mean all metal is heavy, heavy leather is medium, and light leather and cloth is light. )
I don't want tit to be subjective either. It needs to be simple and clear. Chain's gauge and weave is too complex for little gain.
"Now, as for rules modifications, I'm thinking why not just make chain medium, but add chain with hardened leather to heavy"
this makes ALL chain medium, easier to deal with. and adds an easy way to get chain + leather into heavy.
(of course I could go for putting all CHain in heavy. that would mean all metal is heavy, heavy leather is medium, and light leather and cloth is light. )
I don't want tit to be subjective either. It needs to be simple and clear. Chain's gauge and weave is too complex for little gain.
Travis Cole
Why should you have to ask OOG questions because there may be point changes 1 or 2 points in a certain direction.
Shanes armor what if it were a suite of medium (6 points) plus 2 points for 8.
Why do you think you should be able to ask OOG what is up every time?
We do not do that for quality armor now. You run around with leather armor getting medium points. How they heck can I tell it is quality?
Bad argument
Shanes armor what if it were a suite of medium (6 points) plus 2 points for 8.
Why do you think you should be able to ask OOG what is up every time?
We do not do that for quality armor now. You run around with leather armor getting medium points. How they heck can I tell it is quality?
Bad argument
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
How about we go with steel chain is heavy and aluminium is medium? It puts aluminum chain somewhere in the hierarchy as real armor which I think it deserves on shear aesthetics alone. As far as gauge and weave go, it would be up to the armor marshall/GM to decide if it is real or fake. Obviously someone with 1 inch diameter rings will get fake armor. If it is close and looks good, its real.
What are peoples thoughts on armour stacking? I like Light + Light= Medium and Medium + Medium= Heavy. What if part of the armour is real and part is fake? Should only real armour be able to be stacked?
What are peoples thoughts on armour stacking? I like Light + Light= Medium and Medium + Medium= Heavy. What if part of the armour is real and part is fake? Should only real armour be able to be stacked?
Wayne O
The Game Master Lite
Frag the weak, Hurdle the dead!
The Game Master Lite
Frag the weak, Hurdle the dead!