The mere effort and expenditure should be worth something, thats like saying you don't get light armor points for armor you make because it doesn't look thick or period enough.
I agree that the effort to make something should be rewarded and it is as long as that effort is put towards making something that looks reasonably period. There is a certain asthetic that we try to achieve with the game. If you want to put forth the effort to build something and are not quite sure if it fits, ask a GM. We are all VERY accessable and willing to help.
Now, lets look at this thing from a different angle. If I have the time and spend 12 hours at the forge and anvil making a barbute helm that fits into the aesthetic of the game, is heavy, and impares part of my vision dont I deserve a bonus compared to someone who buys a $5 plastic helmet from Halloween USA? Ask Doug what it is like to fight for a battle in real armor versus plastic or cardboard armor. The difference is well worth a bonus. Its not a matter of haves and have nots. It is a matter of awarding effort and balancing out the sacrifices to OOG speed/movement/visibility that people make in the name of period aesthetics. If we cut out all bonuses for the efforts people make to costume and phys-rep things then before long we will be dressed in jeans and playing paper-rock-scissors.
Wayne O
The Game Master Lite
Frag the weak, Hurdle the dead!
Im with Mike Helmet Rules are gone next year. Meaning no armor no bonus..nothing
I am also thinking, since this is a represented thing, we should do away with costuming.
I am not going nuts here. I still feel people should wear a certain level of costuming so we can keep with the feel of the game, but people are correct in that this game costs money and there is a bunch of ways to play a character. Why can't soak just represent agility?
Basically, I am saying we get away with weapon specs and armor specs by saying a person can have what max soak up to what their class has.
This way money is no longer an issue, and the players don't have to worry about subjectivty.
We just need to review all soak and we can hard set the soak by class and discipline.
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
I won't lie, real armor and helms look cool. On one hand, I think people should be rewarded for using them, but then we run into that category of people with more to spend being rewarded per how much money is spent, not necessarily time. I thought we were kind of trying to get away from that to make the game more accessible to new folks? On the other hand is the safety issue, both to the people wearing the equipment and those around them, I'll get to that later.
If there is a way to make heavy armor and helmets considerably more inexpensively than it costs to purchase them, maybe some tutorials would be helpful, because I haven't found a lot of suggestions in this area. I don't mind something taking time to make, but I don't have a lot of money to spend on materials and I know many others are much worse off than me. Also, nothing would be worse than spending months working on armor, just to come into the game and be told it doesn't qualify for a certain type. For example, not considering the cost of the materials, in theory, it could take you a LOT longer to make chainmail than it would take you to make platemail, but what would you count it as? Even decent looking "fake" armor could take you some time to make, from weeks to months, so how do you make that determination?
Also, my problem with some of the helmets is safety. As awesome as helmets look, they constrain sight, hearing and reduces spacial awareness, especially the helms suggested that have face-plates. People can try to be aware of this, but that gets understandably lax during fights.
In my opinion, safety should always be first. It really hurts if someone falls into you or accidentally knocks into you with them on as well. There are already some safety issues I have a problem with although I accept there is a certain amount of injury that will happen in a game like this. One of the newer players and myself had this happen in the cave last year. Several players who must have been in the next room over fighting backed through the wall in heavy armor in the narrow passage that consisted of the entryway. Both of us ended up flung into the pavilion posts because there was nowhere else to go. I whacked my wrist on the post and he hit his head, hard. I asked him to mention it to someone, but I don't think he did. I can't remember who else saw this happen, but I know someone behind us did...I think it was Onyx. Now I'm hoping it's just a coincidence, but I haven't seen him at an event since. Coming through the wall (I assume because they couldn't feel it was there) happened several more times. You can't count on people in heavy armor to feel, hear or see what is going on around them safely, and this is understandably so, given the nature of the equipment.
As far as armor representing agility, Chris, we already have that, it's called Combat Reflexes. You could limit this by giving people a cap on how many combat reflexes they could utilize, depending on how many armor points they were wearing. This could be extended to make other kinds of quality armor more valuable because they allow someone to utilize more combat reflexes. Kind of like the Dex armor bonus in D&D. I almost think some of Chris's suggestions about removing armor have merit, because there is too much subjectiveness currently, which leads to bad feelings. With combat reflexes, there is no subjectiveness on what armor counts as what kind of armor. Or, if you want to keep the illusion of armor (Or real armor) color code people (With tabbards or tape or something) so we can tell what they are wearing. This would be especially useful for NPCs who don't always have access to the necessary phys-reps to represent the heavy-armored soldiers or light armored bandits they are portraying. Heck, you could even require a minimum amount of inexpensive padding to represent heavier armors.
I am one of the people who think that soak is becoming too low...as opposed to the people who think soak is too high and that it can make the game too deadly for certain classes. If soak is too high, take it away from classes that it is too high first, before taking it away from everyone. I know there are many characters who can be easily taken down two hits and those who take at least thirty. This is a HUGE discrepancy, maybe too big and I think that is where the complaints about soak come in. I certainly appreciate the effort in trying to work this out. I just don't know if heavy helmets are the solution. I don't think anyone does, looking back at the "Ha ha, sure empaths, wear that heavy helmet and still throw your spell packets" comment. So what exactly were these modifications meant to accomplish?
I was telling my husband about these new rules and his comment was "Why does it matter? You aren't supposed to hit people in the head anyway, right?" Obviously he missed the point, but I think maybe I am as well.
Mike: For the majority of you, choosing to use a packet instead of a weapon is a hindrance because your aims suck.
The empath comment was in direct response to people telling us that empaths can have two extra soak now and that that is huge, it's like having a second level skill. We did not create the hemet rules to give empaths two extra soak as it was pointed out to us. We in fact think this is ridiculous and thus the comment I made about good luck with that.
I'm going to try and make this my final post on the matter because frankly I want the conversation to end and I'm not doing my part in making that happen.
So here it is...
We think good helmets look good and crappy helmets look crappy. We would like to encourage good helmets and discourage crappy ones that not only provide no protection but also detract from the rest of the otherwise awesome costume (not thinking of anyone in particular). And so the conversation started with giving cool helmets an extra costume point. Now, since costume points are actually life points, we eliminated the costume point from our vocabulary and made them life points, and then it evolved from there into what it is today. Again, at no time did giving the empath extra soak enter into our thinking (nor should it have). If you feel bad because you do not have the time or money to achieve the two extra soak, we do apologize.
The GM's giving different responses should be a thing of the past, since we have required majority approval for quite some time now. We will not and have not screwed anyone at anytime who has put time and effort into something. In fact, we applaud your efforts and we would like to show our gratitude for doing your part to add to the flavor of our game. This helps everyone by making the atmoshpere that much better. We are sorry that not everyone has the same amount of time as others to put into the equipment that they bring into game, but by not encouraging such effort, there is no reason for anyone to ever try. As it is, despite the opinion of two or three people, the bonus we are giving is very small and not at all unbalancing.
That said, we have heard your concerns and we appreciate your passion for the game that has allowed you to want to make the effort to make this game as good as it can possibly be. We would not be the game we are without you guys and I can honestly say I am looking forward to beating the crap out of each and every one of you this weekend
Don’t hurt me, but I LIKE the helmet rules. I remember a number of depictions of magey types wearing metal skull caps (like Merlin). While you may need to wave your arms around to cast spells – thus requiring light materials to be worn on the body - the head was always something that could and should be well-protected. I can totally see robed mages running around in metal helms.
having worn a HUGE METAL HELM, i stopped wearing because the benifit was not worth the effort. if I was chargoth I would wear the metal helmet again. the rules might need some tighteneing, but let those mages wear a dang helmet and move on.
I think my comments were taken in the wrong way, which is pretty much the norm once I start typing. I'm all for giving a bonus for having a real phys rep, I think I wrote that atleast once in this thread. I'm just against taking away any bonus for not having a real phys rep.
My comments about the soakability thing were really just based on the discussion a couple of years ago when it was suggested that it be simply 1,2,3 armor and atleast one of the GM's was emphatic that there was no way that any helm gave you the same type of protection as a full suit of light armor, I was simply mentioning that. I also pointed out only med counted as armor as far as disciplines and paths restrictions go so it gave them a slight disadvantage.
And Doug, Merlins magey skull cap would probably be real light (doesn't fit into the coverage part of the rules).
I hope you guys do realize that the main reason we nitpick at the rules is because we truly do want to have as solid a system as possible and that we care about the game a great deal. If we didn't we'd just be quiet and either find another LARP or just live with it until we got frustrated enough to just quit coming. Which I'm sorry to say but you bastages are stuck with me atleast.
I can certainly understand your frustrations with those few of us who seem to pick apart everything you guys do, but truthfully it's probably better that it's us and not someone reading the rules for the first time and deciding whether or not to play.
And Mike, I'll be looking forward to it.
Death=Adder
One of these days...I'm going to cut you into little pieces...
Part of the problem was based on a misconception. I wanted helms removed from 'Armor totals' and thought they were... but no one else thought that apparently.
When all is said and done I think it might get cleaned up in explaination, but not much will actually change.
So does a medium real helmet add to your overall armor total when calculating ones armor category. One says yes, the other says no. What is the true answer?
Not any more than before, though. All helms used to give +1 armor. Now real medium gives +1 Life, +1 Armor. So Slisk, being limited to medium armor by his skill set, can have no more than 7 AP. Before this rule change his armor provided 7 AP (full legs, full arms, torso, and helmet). Now his armor provides 7 AP and 1 LP for this same getup.
I remember a number of depictions of magey types wearing metal skull caps (like Merlin). While you may need to wave your arms around to cast spells – thus requiring light materials to be worn on the body - the head was always something that could and should be well-protected. I can totally see robed mages running around in metal helms.
