Medium gives them no advantage over light as well. And I thought your aim was to give bonuses for heavier helms...
Again, I still think the way a helm is determined to be light medium or heavy needs work too. It's like saying you have to wear a full suit of full plate to have heavy armor. Using the same rules for helms that you already do for armor makes a lot more sense.
And smaller issues are things that shouldn't be overlooked since they are easy to fix. The devil is in the details as they say. You hate answering obvious questions but if the changes never get done, then people will continue to ask. Currently, this portion is ambigous and it'd take 20 minutes to clear it up.
new helmet rules
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General Maximus
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Let me recap. All helmets expect for real medium do not add to ones armor category. Why is a real medium helmet a pentality? Please explain this to me and the logic behind this?
And getting 2 additional soak as an empath or another disapline with armor restriction is huge. It is equalvent to a second level disapline. (+2 combat relexes)
So it might not seem that big on the surface, it does matter big time to armor restricted builds.
And getting 2 additional soak as an empath or another disapline with armor restriction is huge. It is equalvent to a second level disapline. (+2 combat relexes)
So it might not seem that big on the surface, it does matter big time to armor restricted builds.
The logic was we proposed it and voted on it and probably didn't think too much about this particular aspect of the change.
That said, it isn't changing now, so all you armor restricted builds out there can definitly go out and get themselves a 12 pound helmet and strap it on your head so you can take advantage of the extra 2 soak.
If some of you are thinking of taking advantage of the extra 2 points then you may want to check with us on the helm you think will be considered a heavy helm before the event. I know we have been pretty easy going about it in the past and won't be this time around.
That said, it isn't changing now, so all you armor restricted builds out there can definitly go out and get themselves a 12 pound helmet and strap it on your head so you can take advantage of the extra 2 soak.
If some of you are thinking of taking advantage of the extra 2 points then you may want to check with us on the helm you think will be considered a heavy helm before the event. I know we have been pretty easy going about it in the past and won't be this time around.
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
WOW! This has been the longest thread on the biggest NON-issue ever. You guys can cut out the snide remarks and the mean comments that we frankly DO NOT deserve. We work our asses off to put this game together and you're busting our balls because a 12 pound helmet (that nearly no one wears and certainly no one with ranged abilities wears) now gives two extra soak. If it's that huge WE ARE SORRY, but it is what it is and so you NEED to get over it. It won't be changing and we encourage our empaths to wear that big freaking helmet and chuck packets with accuracy.
I'm aware that this post came off like I'm angry. Caps and harsh language does that. I'm not. I'm actually laughing that we're having this big of a conversation about this.
I'm aware that this post came off like I'm angry. Caps and harsh language does that. I'm not. I'm actually laughing that we're having this big of a conversation about this.
I hate being the instigator but well I'm good at it. 
I've mentioned the same previous arguement at least three times. You partially do deserve the comment that you don't change things that take very little time to change. You get 80% done with something then go work on soemthing else. Guess what? I do the same thing and get my balls busted all the time for it, especially in my job where 80% just isn't good enough (and I deserve every bit of it). It's nothing personal, it just a fact that most of us like instant gratification. Yes, I know it's a pain to finish off that last 20% (where the gain seems less important), but it's something that you have to do. You will do it eventually anyway, so just get it done. Close isn't acceptable. We as players can tolerate it since we see you at the event. But that's the only reason.
Say, for example, I decide to make a new helm (or add a half mask to mine) to gain heavy status. However, since in a previous post, it's up to you as to what you classify as heavy, you say it's only medium. Due to poor communication of your intentions, I've wasted $100 in materials and far more in time. That's very signifigant and more than a non-issue. What if I made chainmail but you then decided it wasn't tight enough weave (since there is nothing about weave in the book)?
You've stated before that you have issues with writing. Yet, you don't heed the advice of people who write and edit technical manuals as a part of their day to day job. If you can't clearly communicate your idea, it will detract from your time doing other things, like running the game. Now, if your ideas are clearly stated you will in the end have less questions at events, thus less distractions and more time to manage plots and other such things.
And I never stated you don't work hard, and you work on a lot more than just the rulebook. It's pretty solid, but it does have cracks. And as with michigan roads, small cracks turn into to big holes. Big holes get patched, leading to more holes, until finally someone re-finishes the section... I just want to see it finished. None of this we'll look at it later stuff.
Anyway, this is more or less my co-worker's work ethic spiel and he is right, even if I don't completely follow it (which is why I have him, to catch my mistakes). It's you choice to listen to him or not.
I've mentioned the same previous arguement at least three times. You partially do deserve the comment that you don't change things that take very little time to change. You get 80% done with something then go work on soemthing else. Guess what? I do the same thing and get my balls busted all the time for it, especially in my job where 80% just isn't good enough (and I deserve every bit of it). It's nothing personal, it just a fact that most of us like instant gratification. Yes, I know it's a pain to finish off that last 20% (where the gain seems less important), but it's something that you have to do. You will do it eventually anyway, so just get it done. Close isn't acceptable. We as players can tolerate it since we see you at the event. But that's the only reason.
Say, for example, I decide to make a new helm (or add a half mask to mine) to gain heavy status. However, since in a previous post, it's up to you as to what you classify as heavy, you say it's only medium. Due to poor communication of your intentions, I've wasted $100 in materials and far more in time. That's very signifigant and more than a non-issue. What if I made chainmail but you then decided it wasn't tight enough weave (since there is nothing about weave in the book)?
You've stated before that you have issues with writing. Yet, you don't heed the advice of people who write and edit technical manuals as a part of their day to day job. If you can't clearly communicate your idea, it will detract from your time doing other things, like running the game. Now, if your ideas are clearly stated you will in the end have less questions at events, thus less distractions and more time to manage plots and other such things.
And I never stated you don't work hard, and you work on a lot more than just the rulebook. It's pretty solid, but it does have cracks. And as with michigan roads, small cracks turn into to big holes. Big holes get patched, leading to more holes, until finally someone re-finishes the section... I just want to see it finished. None of this we'll look at it later stuff.
Anyway, this is more or less my co-worker's work ethic spiel and he is right, even if I don't completely follow it (which is why I have him, to catch my mistakes). It's you choice to listen to him or not.
My posts in no way reflect that of anyone else nor are they in any way official.
Oh my goodness. A few points
FH is not a job. I am pretty happy with 80%, if it could even be considered 80%
Every time one of your horns falls off I don’t remove your racial bonus. It is a game.
When a person obviously puts a lot of work into something then 99% of the time we reward them in some way
We don’t right every rule in stone. For example I don’t want pages of technical specs on armor. I know the engineers in the group would love such a technical and precise model. We simply don't work that way, and frankly it doesn't make good business sense. You may disagree, and if so please go run your own LARP and you will see exactly how much players appreciate it. You see it is a continuum. The more precise you are the less creative you are since you are not free to allow lots of different things.
You say it is a small change just fix it. Well actually that would cost gobs of money since we would have to get a bunch of books reprinted.
You say we will fix it anyways and there is a possibility that we may fix it, but to be honest we have not even talked about it so we may not fix it. You see, even though there are a few players who seem really concerned about the problem we are not.
As for the 2 extra soak. There is a criticism in the game that it is too deadly and there is not enough soak. Also, that warriors are awesome. Well this helps narrow the Gap.
Lastly, if you want to run around chasing the max combos and yes exploiting everything to the max then you are living on the edge. Some people find it fun others get annoyed when they are patched. Assume, that if you see something that i completely out of whack that it will probably get changed and maybe, just maybe it would not be a good idea to spend 100 bucks to try and max out the helm rules this year.
FH is not a job. I am pretty happy with 80%, if it could even be considered 80%
Every time one of your horns falls off I don’t remove your racial bonus. It is a game.
When a person obviously puts a lot of work into something then 99% of the time we reward them in some way
We don’t right every rule in stone. For example I don’t want pages of technical specs on armor. I know the engineers in the group would love such a technical and precise model. We simply don't work that way, and frankly it doesn't make good business sense. You may disagree, and if so please go run your own LARP and you will see exactly how much players appreciate it. You see it is a continuum. The more precise you are the less creative you are since you are not free to allow lots of different things.
You say it is a small change just fix it. Well actually that would cost gobs of money since we would have to get a bunch of books reprinted.
You say we will fix it anyways and there is a possibility that we may fix it, but to be honest we have not even talked about it so we may not fix it. You see, even though there are a few players who seem really concerned about the problem we are not.
As for the 2 extra soak. There is a criticism in the game that it is too deadly and there is not enough soak. Also, that warriors are awesome. Well this helps narrow the Gap.
Lastly, if you want to run around chasing the max combos and yes exploiting everything to the max then you are living on the edge. Some people find it fun others get annoyed when they are patched. Assume, that if you see something that i completely out of whack that it will probably get changed and maybe, just maybe it would not be a good idea to spend 100 bucks to try and max out the helm rules this year.
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
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General Maximus
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Todd
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For the record (and I cant believe Im saying this) but for the most part I agree with Reid. Nebulousness leads to inconsistency. Im not saying every detail must appear in the Rulebook, just that it should be somewhere and it should be solid.
As for Nelkie and the hats,
Mickey; Light fake
Cloth Helm; Light fake (Real, if done for full padded effect. Legitimate)
Pirate Dewrag; Light fake
Just my opinion.
As for Nelkie and the hats,
Mickey; Light fake
Cloth Helm; Light fake (Real, if done for full padded effect. Legitimate)
Pirate Dewrag; Light fake
Just my opinion.
Last edited by Todd on Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
~the Lunatic fringe~
please lock this thread, I just had a mild heart attack. 
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Donovan Thynedar
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The rules will always be susceptable to the subjective will of the GM's.
Rules are like laws, you will never have enough of them to cover every situation. It's not even worth your time to try to have a rule for every situation - what you have to do is create rules broad enough to cover the most likely situations and then establish precedents for the exceptions. Once established, those precedents can ground the "nebulous" portions of the system and provide players with the sense of stability and security that some are seeking.
That's what it's really about: fairness.
It's not fair to the person who spends time and effort in expectation of a benefit to have that benefit denied, no question. Your example depicts hard rules, where the very human GM denies you your heavy helm bonus based off of a misunderstanding. I really don't see that happening.
The GM's have stated time and again that they're not going to cheese someone out of a benefit that they deserve, and I'm willing to take them at their word. I'm also willing to help them establish the precendents that will allow the system to really flow in the way it was intended. I am absolutely confident that someone who expended, in good faith, a considerable sum to aquire a period helm would get the benefit they expected to receive. We need to have faith in the people running our system.
Seriously, if you can't trust them to treat you fairly under the rules they wrote, why bother coming to a game in which they yield unlimited power?
Reid, you're filling a necessary role by finding rule potholes and reporting them. Nelkie does the same thing, and your nitpicking (regardless of what some people may think of it) has made the system better. Refinements and clarifications have come both as a result of your observations and the shared practice of actually playing the game. It feels like your trying to remove the human factor from the rules by making them hard and technical.
One thing to remember is that our unprecedented access to the authors of our gaming system comes with drawbacks as well as benefits. Sure, we get to have our input considered for the very fabric of the world we play in, but we're perpetual playtesters. It goes something like this:
We come up with crazy stuff not accounted for in the rules.
The GM's make calls based on it.
Those calls are initially inconsistent.
With time precedents are established.
The calls become more consistent.
The framework for the rule becomes clear and a formal structure is proposed.
The GM's debate the mechanics of interrelation regarding said rule.
The new rule is released.
We come up with crazy stuff not accounted for in the rules.
and so on...
We're all a part of that process. The responsibility to put forth a good faith effort goes both ways. If the print is questionable than consult the living, breathing rulebook before you spend your $100 on helmet modifications and you'll be fine.
Rules are like laws, you will never have enough of them to cover every situation. It's not even worth your time to try to have a rule for every situation - what you have to do is create rules broad enough to cover the most likely situations and then establish precedents for the exceptions. Once established, those precedents can ground the "nebulous" portions of the system and provide players with the sense of stability and security that some are seeking.
That's what it's really about: fairness.
It's not fair to the person who spends time and effort in expectation of a benefit to have that benefit denied, no question. Your example depicts hard rules, where the very human GM denies you your heavy helm bonus based off of a misunderstanding. I really don't see that happening.
The GM's have stated time and again that they're not going to cheese someone out of a benefit that they deserve, and I'm willing to take them at their word. I'm also willing to help them establish the precendents that will allow the system to really flow in the way it was intended. I am absolutely confident that someone who expended, in good faith, a considerable sum to aquire a period helm would get the benefit they expected to receive. We need to have faith in the people running our system.
Seriously, if you can't trust them to treat you fairly under the rules they wrote, why bother coming to a game in which they yield unlimited power?
Reid, you're filling a necessary role by finding rule potholes and reporting them. Nelkie does the same thing, and your nitpicking (regardless of what some people may think of it) has made the system better. Refinements and clarifications have come both as a result of your observations and the shared practice of actually playing the game. It feels like your trying to remove the human factor from the rules by making them hard and technical.
One thing to remember is that our unprecedented access to the authors of our gaming system comes with drawbacks as well as benefits. Sure, we get to have our input considered for the very fabric of the world we play in, but we're perpetual playtesters. It goes something like this:
We come up with crazy stuff not accounted for in the rules.
The GM's make calls based on it.
Those calls are initially inconsistent.
With time precedents are established.
The calls become more consistent.
The framework for the rule becomes clear and a formal structure is proposed.
The GM's debate the mechanics of interrelation regarding said rule.
The new rule is released.
We come up with crazy stuff not accounted for in the rules.
and so on...
We're all a part of that process. The responsibility to put forth a good faith effort goes both ways. If the print is questionable than consult the living, breathing rulebook before you spend your $100 on helmet modifications and you'll be fine.
One should rather die than be betrayed. There is no deceit in death. It delivers precisely what it has promised. Betrayal, though ... betrayal is the willful slaughter of hope.
The problem with that lies in the fact that there are multiple GM's and each will give you a different answer on whether something is acceptable. It's like when you're a kid you know to go to mom because she is more lenient than going to dad because he is much stricter. Chris feels like unless it's a "helmet" you shouldn't get anything for it. Personally I think that stinks, especially in a game where you are required to phys rep so much stuff. The mere effort and expenditure should be worth something, thats like saying you don't get light armor points for armor you make because it doesn't look thick or period enough.
I guess my point is what's really the difference between buying a pirate do-rag for a helm or taking some black vinyl and making the same basic thing? Why is one a helmet and one not? Merely because of a perception. Neither one would really offer you any real protection. I couldn't sew myself into a frickin burlap sack, I spend most of my discretionary income just to come to the LARPS and truthfully I barely have time in my life to write out my character sheet again between events. I've been meaning to redo my armor for 4 years now, my bastard sword has been out of commision for over a year because I just don't have much time. So someone in my position either has to find someone to make something for them which would cost the materials and compensation for the work and time dropping them off and picking them up or buy something cheap that's a representation of something real. So whether or not you are getting screwed is a matter of perception, I would say the rules themselves screw you because you either have to have the talent and time to make something that seems "real" to get light helm or buy one which is not at all cheap.
I guess my point is what's really the difference between buying a pirate do-rag for a helm or taking some black vinyl and making the same basic thing? Why is one a helmet and one not? Merely because of a perception. Neither one would really offer you any real protection. I couldn't sew myself into a frickin burlap sack, I spend most of my discretionary income just to come to the LARPS and truthfully I barely have time in my life to write out my character sheet again between events. I've been meaning to redo my armor for 4 years now, my bastard sword has been out of commision for over a year because I just don't have much time. So someone in my position either has to find someone to make something for them which would cost the materials and compensation for the work and time dropping them off and picking them up or buy something cheap that's a representation of something real. So whether or not you are getting screwed is a matter of perception, I would say the rules themselves screw you because you either have to have the talent and time to make something that seems "real" to get light helm or buy one which is not at all cheap.
Death=Adder
One of these days...I'm going to cut you into little pieces...
~Pink Floyd~
One of these days...I'm going to cut you into little pieces...
~Pink Floyd~