Druid vs. Beastling vs. Werecreature
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- Tonia Glowski
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Druid vs. Beastling vs. Werecreature
Sorry that I keep breaking these discussions off, but I'm trying to isolate issues and keep the 15 page threads down to a minimum.
That being said, I'm going to isolate the discussion about Wayne O's proposal for Beastlings, specifically whether it's any different than introducing a Werecreature, as well as if it's any different than basically what was being proposed by the Druid Emulate Totem debate.
Here is what I interpret from Wayne's description for the Beastling Skill (all four levels):
BENEFITS
Improved Senses
Improved Spot Time
Improved Search Time
1 Minor Ability
1 Major Ability
Dagger Size Claws --> Shortsword Size Claws
Partial Transformation (30 Seconds) --> Full Transformation (30 Seconds) - Same Size
DISADVANTAGES
No Skills that require Fine Manipulation
The only skills that I have been able to surmise that a Beastling could no longer use while in partial or full form are:
Alchemy
Pick Lock (Simple or Complex)
Set Disarm/Traps (Simple or Complex)
Craftsman
Write (although they could still read)
Surgery
Archer
Other than the last two (Surgery and Archer) the rest of the skills are usually not combat necessary and only losing the Archery skill might directly affect combat. There isn't a single melee skill that is lost. The rest of the "affected" skills would be easily compensated for by shifting out in 30 seconds, performing the deed, then shifting back in to beast form - thereby only losing 1 minute's worth of time (at least only up to Level 3, as it seems there is full transformation at Level 4?). Whoopdee doo, there will be fewer Rogue Beastlings.
(As an aside, I can guarantee you will get the cheeseballs who will say, "I can pick a lock with my claws in my hand, watch! I've been practicing at home...")
Not only would most Beastlings maintain every single skill they have, thereby negating any "disadvantages," according to Wayne's description they'd still get their racial boon, which is downright odd.
All in all, this discipline is way overpowered in my opinion, with basically no or few disadvantages... they're more like inconveniences than anything else.
**********************************************************
Now, as to how it is different than the Druid Emulate Totem debate...
We were starting to narrow it down, or at least I was proposing that Emulate Totem be extremely limited to the following:
BENEFITS
Full Transformation (30 seconds) - Same Size
Two claws (up to 26") or One bite (depending on the animal)
One Skill, determined by Plot
DISADVANTAGES
No use of equipment or items
Loss of all other skills (except Druid skills)
No talking
No picking up things
This is not semantics. There are clear differences between the two proposed skills, with a dramatic difference in disadvantages between the two and a relatively simple description for the Level 4 Emulate Totem skill.
I wanted to answer the question of my earlier statement. That being said, I'm starting to feel uncomfortable debating skills in your system. It's definitely not my place, or at least not where I wanted my place to be in another group's system, so I'm going to personally hush on this matter unless asked. It's not that I don't care, but frankly, I trust the powers-that-be in this system and I'll enjoy the game either way (just like everyone else will).
That being said, I'm going to isolate the discussion about Wayne O's proposal for Beastlings, specifically whether it's any different than introducing a Werecreature, as well as if it's any different than basically what was being proposed by the Druid Emulate Totem debate.
Here is what I interpret from Wayne's description for the Beastling Skill (all four levels):
BENEFITS
Improved Senses
Improved Spot Time
Improved Search Time
1 Minor Ability
1 Major Ability
Dagger Size Claws --> Shortsword Size Claws
Partial Transformation (30 Seconds) --> Full Transformation (30 Seconds) - Same Size
DISADVANTAGES
No Skills that require Fine Manipulation
The only skills that I have been able to surmise that a Beastling could no longer use while in partial or full form are:
Alchemy
Pick Lock (Simple or Complex)
Set Disarm/Traps (Simple or Complex)
Craftsman
Write (although they could still read)
Surgery
Archer
Other than the last two (Surgery and Archer) the rest of the skills are usually not combat necessary and only losing the Archery skill might directly affect combat. There isn't a single melee skill that is lost. The rest of the "affected" skills would be easily compensated for by shifting out in 30 seconds, performing the deed, then shifting back in to beast form - thereby only losing 1 minute's worth of time (at least only up to Level 3, as it seems there is full transformation at Level 4?). Whoopdee doo, there will be fewer Rogue Beastlings.
(As an aside, I can guarantee you will get the cheeseballs who will say, "I can pick a lock with my claws in my hand, watch! I've been practicing at home...")
Not only would most Beastlings maintain every single skill they have, thereby negating any "disadvantages," according to Wayne's description they'd still get their racial boon, which is downright odd.
All in all, this discipline is way overpowered in my opinion, with basically no or few disadvantages... they're more like inconveniences than anything else.
**********************************************************
Now, as to how it is different than the Druid Emulate Totem debate...
We were starting to narrow it down, or at least I was proposing that Emulate Totem be extremely limited to the following:
BENEFITS
Full Transformation (30 seconds) - Same Size
Two claws (up to 26") or One bite (depending on the animal)
One Skill, determined by Plot
DISADVANTAGES
No use of equipment or items
Loss of all other skills (except Druid skills)
No talking
No picking up things
This is not semantics. There are clear differences between the two proposed skills, with a dramatic difference in disadvantages between the two and a relatively simple description for the Level 4 Emulate Totem skill.
I wanted to answer the question of my earlier statement. That being said, I'm starting to feel uncomfortable debating skills in your system. It's definitely not my place, or at least not where I wanted my place to be in another group's system, so I'm going to personally hush on this matter unless asked. It's not that I don't care, but frankly, I trust the powers-that-be in this system and I'll enjoy the game either way (just like everyone else will).
Tonia Brown
aka: Talanalassë Isilisurë the Elven Artificer (Final Haven)
Jade the Gargoyle (Final Haven)
Pasha the Sylvani Seer (Winter Haven)
Grok the Orc Head (A Pouch)
aka: Talanalassë Isilisurë the Elven Artificer (Final Haven)
Jade the Gargoyle (Final Haven)
Pasha the Sylvani Seer (Winter Haven)
Grok the Orc Head (A Pouch)
Cheeseballs in a game shouldn't exist. Why? It's all in the wording of the skill. Saying you may not use skills involving fine manipulation is vague and not worth the printing ink (granted for discussion purposes, it works). However, if you state which skills, there is no question. (This is not a new issue really, read rage and find where it says you may use the warrior armor bonus)
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- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:49 am
Werecreature, beastling, Druid call it what you will. Personally the only thing that is going to be detrimental to the atmosphere (and game by proxy) is the proliferation of the damnable orange headband.
A pre-req of any skill that requires beastness or transformation should be at least 40% costuming. An attempt if you will.
But we all know there will just be people running around with Rambo Orange Headbands saying "I'm a wolf! I'm a wolf!"
That will be sweet! *sarcasm detector explodes*
A pre-req of any skill that requires beastness or transformation should be at least 40% costuming. An attempt if you will.
But we all know there will just be people running around with Rambo Orange Headbands saying "I'm a wolf! I'm a wolf!"
That will be sweet! *sarcasm detector explodes*
I have been thinking alot about the whole "What do I see/ Orange Headband dilema" and it has brought me to the conclusion that I am 100% against any sort of temporary transformation skill.
If we decide to go with the beastling, I think the beastling should gain permanent physical characteristics of the totem animal (ie, a tail for a fox, fur for a feline, fangs or claws for a wolf). If we go with emulate totem, I think we would need to do the same.
If we decide to go with the beastling, I think the beastling should gain permanent physical characteristics of the totem animal (ie, a tail for a fox, fur for a feline, fangs or claws for a wolf). If we go with emulate totem, I think we would need to do the same.
Wayne O
The Game Master Lite
Frag the weak, Hurdle the dead!
The Game Master Lite
Frag the weak, Hurdle the dead!
Off topic, but I feel NPCs should immediately declare/describe what they are the moment they see a PC look at them.
Last event I saw a group of NPCs approaching. When they failed to declare what they were, I had to break character and shout 'What do I see?'. The NPCs then, very slowly, provided a description (they were somewhat out of breath). They crossed another 50 yards (no exageration), and pretty much reached us, before completing the description. In game, it was as if we were deer in headlights as they approached.
Last event I saw a group of NPCs approaching. When they failed to declare what they were, I had to break character and shout 'What do I see?'. The NPCs then, very slowly, provided a description (they were somewhat out of breath). They crossed another 50 yards (no exageration), and pretty much reached us, before completing the description. In game, it was as if we were deer in headlights as they approached.
Learn the past. Observe the present. Guide the future.
This has been addressed before and is an excellent point. We need to be able to do a better job of this because it is unfair to the pc to not be allowed an appropriate reaction until it is too late. If it's night and we're humanoid, fine, but even at night you can tell the difference between human and animal and giant.
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- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:49 am
I am sure that I have seen this brought up somewhere before. it is the idea that different monsters/creatures/size categories have concretely identifiable tabards.
A quick example;
-A giant or any creature larger than like 8feet tall must have a green tabbard.
Before I really start to think, isn't this line of thinking just an extension of the headband?
There has to be a better system than this/other than just spending thousands on costuming.
I am lazy and will not start a new topic so someone else do it.
A quick example;
-A giant or any creature larger than like 8feet tall must have a green tabbard.
Before I really start to think, isn't this line of thinking just an extension of the headband?
There has to be a better system than this/other than just spending thousands on costuming.
I am lazy and will not start a new topic so someone else do it.
There is a better system, PC donation of costuming needed by monster camp/plot team. It has worked well in EVERY other game system I have been involved in. The last one equpied 2 out of state chapters with weapons, costuming, make up, storage bins AND logistics computers with this system!
BG
BG
Grand High Chancellor of ROBUST UNPLEASANTNESS
...and the 11th commandment is:
"The stupid shall be punished!"
...and the 11th commandment is:
"The stupid shall be punished!"
That is why the tabbard idea is a pretty good one. With the tabbards you could color code it or something.
White for undead
Green for like orcs or something
Brown for big animals
etc...
From there one could apply the face make-up and all for a more realistic feel.
Just a though for I've seen it in other game systems and it works out pretty well.
White for undead
Green for like orcs or something
Brown for big animals
etc...
From there one could apply the face make-up and all for a more realistic feel.
Just a though for I've seen it in other game systems and it works out pretty well.
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The only issue with tabards is that in the dark few people can see any color, let alone distinguish between similar light or dark colors.
As for the time NPCs have to change costuming, if they had access to several "fur tabbards" made from several different fur stules AND many animal masks AND fur tails with tie on straps AND claw phys reps for them all AND pleanty of make up, mirrors, baby wipes, and bottled water AND the bins to tore the stuff according to catagory(macks, make up, furs, etc...)... they would need less time to change. THis is where my suggestion of a donation system is intended to make noticable improvements in the feel of the game.
BG
As for the time NPCs have to change costuming, if they had access to several "fur tabbards" made from several different fur stules AND many animal masks AND fur tails with tie on straps AND claw phys reps for them all AND pleanty of make up, mirrors, baby wipes, and bottled water AND the bins to tore the stuff according to catagory(macks, make up, furs, etc...)... they would need less time to change. THis is where my suggestion of a donation system is intended to make noticable improvements in the feel of the game.
BG
Grand High Chancellor of ROBUST UNPLEASANTNESS
...and the 11th commandment is:
"The stupid shall be punished!"
...and the 11th commandment is:
"The stupid shall be punished!"