The following are direct quotes from a variety of players in the Druid discussion (I'm not picking on any player, just reiterating a general sentiment):
"Not worth a 4th level."
"By transforming into your animal you become less powerful than a 0 level character with basic equipment."
"Getting claws and a simple ability, but lossing all the use of all equipment, skills, speach, is plain SILLY and unfair!"
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Why does every skill or ability necessarily have to have combat implications in order to have value?
I would argue that when you are debating the balance of skills/abilities/equipment/items, you need to measure the usefulness and value of those respective things in a variety of circumstances, not the combat effectiveness.
To go specifically into the debate at hand (let's assume ONLY a complete animal form and 2 claws - not even an extra skill), here are several examples of how unbelievably valuable and unique this skill would be:
** Character totem can call upon an anonymous form at will, if they keep the form discreet.
** Character totem can travel at will with other animals (who, for the most part, will be highly unlikely to attack -- in fact, many other animals and insects are likely not to attack unless it's a food chain thing or a territorial dispute).
** Character totem does not pose the same threat (by their very presence) that they might in their natural form to certain groups.
** Character totem may be able to scout or go places that they normally couldn't, allowing them to gain valuable information and insight about what town might face.
** Character totem claws are not disarmable, you can't lose them (at least not to a wayward Orc), they're with you everywhere you go (even if someone attempts to take your weapons away) and you get to dual-wield weapons.
** Character totem can escape bonds and other imprisonment by shifting into a new form that can't be supressed (if the assumption is that armor doesn't fit and would "break").
** Cool-ass roleplaying opportunities.
I think that the conclusion that you need something more for the fourth level druid skill ignores the intrinsic value of the skill. Adding something more is too much and unnecessary. I wouldn't be upset if the powers-that-be do modify the skill, but figure I'll represent the minority opinion of favoring less "stuff" and more "being."
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To those who echo the following sentiment:
"I disagree with a skill that makes you less powerful/useful unlike all other skills which grant a person an advantage. The reason why you take certain path, disapline, skills, is so you can have an advantage against your enimies."
I think the above examples are just a few reasons why it makes you more useful (both in combat and non-combat situations).
As far as the conclusion about the motivation for CHARACTERS to choose certain skills and abilities, I highly disagree. This is a terrible generalization to make. There are many roleplaying reasons why players choose things for their characters, often having nothing to do with melee, combat, or even politics.
Finally, from a roleplaying perspective, why does a Druid select or develop an affinity for their totem animal? Answering this question may resolve this matter a lot quicker than this long debate.
Druid Discussion and Balance of Value...
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Tonia Glowski
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Druid Discussion and Balance of Value...
Tonia Brown
aka: Talanalassë Isilisurë the Elven Artificer (Final Haven)
Jade the Gargoyle (Final Haven)
Pasha the Sylvani Seer (Winter Haven)
Grok the Orc Head (A Pouch)
aka: Talanalassë Isilisurë the Elven Artificer (Final Haven)
Jade the Gargoyle (Final Haven)
Pasha the Sylvani Seer (Winter Haven)
Grok the Orc Head (A Pouch)
1. disguise already does this, if you want this take disguise1 Character totem can call upon an anonymous form at will, if they keep the form discreet.
2 Character totem can travel at will with other animals (who, for the most part, will be highly unlikely to attack -- in fact, many other animals and insects are likely not to attack unless it's a food chain thing or a territorial dispute).
3 Character totem does not pose the same threat (by their very presence) that they might in their natural form to certain groups.
4 Character totem may be able to scout or go places that they normally couldn't, allowing them to gain valuable information and insight about what town might face.
5 Character totem claws are not disarmable, you can't lose them (at least not to a wayward Orc), they're with you everywhere you go (even if someone attempts to take your weapons away) and you get to dual-wield weapons.
6 Character totem can escape bonds and other imprisonment by shifting into a new form that can't be supressed (if the assumption is that armor doesn't fit and would "break").
7 Cool-ass roleplaying opportunities.
2. true (granted this is something the npcs have to remember)
3. this is roleplaying, not a rules thing, you can do this without emulate
4. this is what wilderness survival is for.
5. true
6. escape bonds already does this, if you want it take spy.
7. no skill is any less roleplayable than any other. (well minus the allegiance)
Again I would never agree to size change, mainly due to the cheese of someone being a rat and going into a building OOG and listening (as they are under the floor boards). Nor would I agree to a skill that replicates an skill already in the game (unless it is exactly that same skill).
Wolf
Great post, here aremy counters
** Character totem can call upon an anonymous form at will, if they keep the form discreet.
This is a limited disguse, equvalant to a level 1 ability. But if PC's play it out correctly the first time a lone wolf walks into town, most likely it will be attacked. Every other time a wolf ahs come into town, it was attacked. Monster=Kill. There is some other players that will try to communicate, but the average PC will try to kill a moster threat.
** Character totem can travel at will with other animals (who, for the most part, will be highly unlikely to attack -- in fact, many other animals and insects are likely not to attack unless it's a food chain thing or a territorial dispute).
This is cool if the NPC alow it. I have played a fence which is very NPC driven and I had trouble getting anywhere with it. I had items to trade, but could not find anyone to trade with for 3-4 sessions. I had fun being a fence, but did not prove very useful. I tried to get new alchmey potions, spells, and minor magic items, as per 4th level fence, but I did not get any where with it. I'm afraid the same thing might happen. It will be based on a NPC call, and no other skill has is NPC dependent.
** Character totem does not pose the same threat (by their very presence) that they might in their natural form to certain groups.
Agreed, but again NPC depend, and one additonal thing NPC need to take in consideration during a scene. If the NPC's are willing to allow it, and roleplay it out, than I'm game.
** Character totem may be able to scout or go places that they normally couldn't, allowing them to gain valuable information and insight about what town might face.
Does this make the druid the master of scouting? IS a druid better at scouting than a scout? I agree because you would be able to use the animal senses to smell, and track better than a normal human. Again, I likr it if NPC agree with it.
** Character totem claws are not disarmable, you can't lose them (at least not to a wayward Orc), they're with you everywhere you go (even if someone attempts to take your weapons away) and you get to dual-wield weapons.
This skill mimics the a spell a first level arcane can cast. Has anyone tried to fight with 2 daggers in battle? You do not survie very long unless you are Brad Liedel. I'll be cool with this if the claws where up to 26". Gives a person a chance to block some in coming hits. Note: a short sword is 36"
** Character totem can escape bonds and other imprisonment by shifting into a new form that can't be supressed (if the assumption is that armor doesn't fit and would "break").
Great idea, I never thought of that, but that means a druid can break from inescapable bonds. I would suggest the character stays about the same size so you don't have rats tunneling under cabins to listen in whats the other players are saying. This can get chessed very easly.
** Cool-ass roleplaying opportunities.
You got that right, and I never disagreed with that.
To sum up the bonus I don't have a problem with
To use: 30 count to change into animal, all equipment gets abosrbed into the body of the animal. Can not speak, use any other skills until in human form, or equipment. You only have your base life, costume, and any buffs. Takes 30 secounds to change back to human.
Bonus while in animal form
Limited disguse
Improved tracking ability
Can escape from any bonds
communicate with animals of totem
up to 26" size dual wielding claws
And maybe a small animal ability based on animal type.
This would work for me because it explains what one can and can not do in animal form. I think that was my big issiue. I'm an animal, what can I do now. I have ideas what I should be able to do, but do the NPC agree? And if the NPC's don't agree, I can't do that. By writing it up in depth, there is no confusion, and fustration on both the PC's and NPC's part. Most of the abilites are NPC drivien, but they have worked with me and are very fair and open minded. The main problem with the fence is the rules for the items I was not completed, and that is why there was a delay.
That is my side of the debate.
By the way, I support this skill, I just want it defined.
** Character totem can call upon an anonymous form at will, if they keep the form discreet.
This is a limited disguse, equvalant to a level 1 ability. But if PC's play it out correctly the first time a lone wolf walks into town, most likely it will be attacked. Every other time a wolf ahs come into town, it was attacked. Monster=Kill. There is some other players that will try to communicate, but the average PC will try to kill a moster threat.
** Character totem can travel at will with other animals (who, for the most part, will be highly unlikely to attack -- in fact, many other animals and insects are likely not to attack unless it's a food chain thing or a territorial dispute).
This is cool if the NPC alow it. I have played a fence which is very NPC driven and I had trouble getting anywhere with it. I had items to trade, but could not find anyone to trade with for 3-4 sessions. I had fun being a fence, but did not prove very useful. I tried to get new alchmey potions, spells, and minor magic items, as per 4th level fence, but I did not get any where with it. I'm afraid the same thing might happen. It will be based on a NPC call, and no other skill has is NPC dependent.
** Character totem does not pose the same threat (by their very presence) that they might in their natural form to certain groups.
Agreed, but again NPC depend, and one additonal thing NPC need to take in consideration during a scene. If the NPC's are willing to allow it, and roleplay it out, than I'm game.
** Character totem may be able to scout or go places that they normally couldn't, allowing them to gain valuable information and insight about what town might face.
Does this make the druid the master of scouting? IS a druid better at scouting than a scout? I agree because you would be able to use the animal senses to smell, and track better than a normal human. Again, I likr it if NPC agree with it.
** Character totem claws are not disarmable, you can't lose them (at least not to a wayward Orc), they're with you everywhere you go (even if someone attempts to take your weapons away) and you get to dual-wield weapons.
This skill mimics the a spell a first level arcane can cast. Has anyone tried to fight with 2 daggers in battle? You do not survie very long unless you are Brad Liedel. I'll be cool with this if the claws where up to 26". Gives a person a chance to block some in coming hits. Note: a short sword is 36"
** Character totem can escape bonds and other imprisonment by shifting into a new form that can't be supressed (if the assumption is that armor doesn't fit and would "break").
Great idea, I never thought of that, but that means a druid can break from inescapable bonds. I would suggest the character stays about the same size so you don't have rats tunneling under cabins to listen in whats the other players are saying. This can get chessed very easly.
** Cool-ass roleplaying opportunities.
You got that right, and I never disagreed with that.
To sum up the bonus I don't have a problem with
To use: 30 count to change into animal, all equipment gets abosrbed into the body of the animal. Can not speak, use any other skills until in human form, or equipment. You only have your base life, costume, and any buffs. Takes 30 secounds to change back to human.
Bonus while in animal form
Limited disguse
Improved tracking ability
Can escape from any bonds
communicate with animals of totem
up to 26" size dual wielding claws
And maybe a small animal ability based on animal type.
This would work for me because it explains what one can and can not do in animal form. I think that was my big issiue. I'm an animal, what can I do now. I have ideas what I should be able to do, but do the NPC agree? And if the NPC's don't agree, I can't do that. By writing it up in depth, there is no confusion, and fustration on both the PC's and NPC's part. Most of the abilites are NPC drivien, but they have worked with me and are very fair and open minded. The main problem with the fence is the rules for the items I was not completed, and that is why there was a delay.
That is my side of the debate.
By the way, I support this skill, I just want it defined.
My Thoughts
Aaron
Aaron
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Todd
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My turn,
2) Maybe hard to establish during combat, but I could see it working in a plot, sometimes there are reasons for things in plots, that arent clear to the PCs. I would hate to have PCs assume this will work everytime, then be upset when it doesnt. Nuetral as a skill
3) This one is assuming the opossite of #1 I think, but not always. If someone knows Ka has a 'pet wolf' that travels with him often, they will be more at ease and less likely to attack. This one is more roleplaying, and less mechanical, so I hold back giving it thumbs.
4) Role playing / plot driven example again. If a bunch of Ogres are sitting around a fire, and a wolf comes just into earshot, when an Ogre notices him. They are more likely to throw something at him, or attack (for food), than to react as they would to adventurures. Again no thumbs.
5) Claws, vs. a ritual. 30 seconds again, thumbs up on speed. Dual weild, thumbs up again, only the monk can do it. (this isnt even replicated in the ritual) again non-disarmable. Im giving this one two thumbs up.
6) Something to look at, and proof that we'll never be able to think of every possible application of a skill. Someone will eventually come along with a fresh perspective, and a new idea. Withholding thumbs at this time.
7) wish I had more thumbs
~fin~
1) Disguise, takes for ever. You can do this in 30 seconds. Thumbs up on usefullness.1 Character totem can call upon an anonymous form at will, if they keep the form discreet.
2 Character totem can travel at will with other animals (who, for the most part, will be highly unlikely to attack -- in fact, many other animals and insects are likely not to attack unless it's a food chain thing or a territorial dispute).
3 Character totem does not pose the same threat (by their very presence) that they might in their natural form to certain groups.
4 Character totem may be able to scout or go places that they normally couldn't, allowing them to gain valuable information and insight about what town might face.
5 Character totem claws are not disarmable, you can't lose them (at least not to a wayward Orc), they're with you everywhere you go (even if someone attempts to take your weapons away) and you get to dual-wield weapons.
6 Character totem can escape bonds and other imprisonment by shifting into a new form that can't be supressed (if the assumption is that armor doesn't fit and would "break").
7 Cool-ass roleplaying opportunities.
2) Maybe hard to establish during combat, but I could see it working in a plot, sometimes there are reasons for things in plots, that arent clear to the PCs. I would hate to have PCs assume this will work everytime, then be upset when it doesnt. Nuetral as a skill
3) This one is assuming the opossite of #1 I think, but not always. If someone knows Ka has a 'pet wolf' that travels with him often, they will be more at ease and less likely to attack. This one is more roleplaying, and less mechanical, so I hold back giving it thumbs.
4) Role playing / plot driven example again. If a bunch of Ogres are sitting around a fire, and a wolf comes just into earshot, when an Ogre notices him. They are more likely to throw something at him, or attack (for food), than to react as they would to adventurures. Again no thumbs.
5) Claws, vs. a ritual. 30 seconds again, thumbs up on speed. Dual weild, thumbs up again, only the monk can do it. (this isnt even replicated in the ritual) again non-disarmable. Im giving this one two thumbs up.
6) Something to look at, and proof that we'll never be able to think of every possible application of a skill. Someone will eventually come along with a fresh perspective, and a new idea. Withholding thumbs at this time.
7) wish I had more thumbs
~fin~
Reply
Tod Said
4) Role playing / plot driven example again. If a bunch of Ogres are sitting around a fire, and a wolf comes just into earshot, when an Ogre notices him. They are more likely to throw something at him, or attack (for food), than to react as they would to adventurures. Again no thumbs.
Question, does an animal form get any extra bonus to tracking becuase of their heighten senses? If so, what is the bonus? If not, it falls back into the bonus of a quick disguse
5) Claws, vs. a ritual. 30 seconds again, thumbs up on speed. Dual weild, thumbs up again, only the monk can do it. (this isnt even replicated in the ritual) again non-disarmable. Im giving this one two thumbs up.
This is the latest version of the spell "Alteration (level 1)
This spell will grow claws in place of the casters hands. Once cast the caster will no longer be able to cast another spell or pick up objects. The caster can duel wield dagger claws until he decides not to anymore. The time it takes to cast this spell is 5 minutes"
Arcane ritual takes 5 minutes, grants 2 claws that are dagger size which can block weapons, can't be disarmed, duel wield, but cannot pick up anything or use an equipment that requires hands. By secound level the monk gets can have 2 12" fist wich can block wepaons, duel wield, but still can pick up and use equipment. Swash buckler gets duel weapon wielding by secound level. So a secound level ability is to be able to dual wield. My point is duel wield dagger claws is only a level 1 or level 2 ability at best. It is not as great as everyone is making them out to be. The 30secs is great, but not that cool. And as I heard, the animal form is not for combat use, so why even bother with claws any way? As stated before a wolf against an armorer, weapon person, the person should win. So why would you fight in animal form at a combat disadavantage? Don't get me wrong, it would be cool, but not very useful and probaly sucidal.
4) Role playing / plot driven example again. If a bunch of Ogres are sitting around a fire, and a wolf comes just into earshot, when an Ogre notices him. They are more likely to throw something at him, or attack (for food), than to react as they would to adventurures. Again no thumbs.
Question, does an animal form get any extra bonus to tracking becuase of their heighten senses? If so, what is the bonus? If not, it falls back into the bonus of a quick disguse
5) Claws, vs. a ritual. 30 seconds again, thumbs up on speed. Dual weild, thumbs up again, only the monk can do it. (this isnt even replicated in the ritual) again non-disarmable. Im giving this one two thumbs up.
This is the latest version of the spell "Alteration (level 1)
This spell will grow claws in place of the casters hands. Once cast the caster will no longer be able to cast another spell or pick up objects. The caster can duel wield dagger claws until he decides not to anymore. The time it takes to cast this spell is 5 minutes"
Arcane ritual takes 5 minutes, grants 2 claws that are dagger size which can block weapons, can't be disarmed, duel wield, but cannot pick up anything or use an equipment that requires hands. By secound level the monk gets can have 2 12" fist wich can block wepaons, duel wield, but still can pick up and use equipment. Swash buckler gets duel weapon wielding by secound level. So a secound level ability is to be able to dual wield. My point is duel wield dagger claws is only a level 1 or level 2 ability at best. It is not as great as everyone is making them out to be. The 30secs is great, but not that cool. And as I heard, the animal form is not for combat use, so why even bother with claws any way? As stated before a wolf against an armorer, weapon person, the person should win. So why would you fight in animal form at a combat disadavantage? Don't get me wrong, it would be cool, but not very useful and probaly sucidal.
My Thoughts
Aaron
Aaron
Example totem: Bloodhound
A druid in bloodhound form can make for an excellent tracker. How quickly might the Bear plot have been solved had we one of these?
However, can't have the bloodhound becoming the defacto scout - that's not fair to the actual scouts in game. Well, the bloodhound tracks by scent alone. Poor black-and-white vision, low veiwpoint, and no hands to examine signs of passage can really limit the bloodhounds tracking ability. However, combine a Scout WITH a bloodhound, and you have an unbeatable tracking team.
Can the bloodhound fight? Sure, just not very well. Probably just character life points and a single short attack phys-rep.
Can the bloodhound use Flee? Perhaps. Dogs can be fast and agile. Would the Druid become a bloodhound just to use flee? No. Takes 30 seconds to transform, and in a situation where flee is needed, that transformation time will kill him. However, since he can't fight well, he'd probably use flee if he encountered enemies while he was tracking in bloodhound form.
This is the primary reason this particular Druid shifts to his animal form - to complement a Scout in tracking to make an uber tracking team. While the focus of this ability is powerful, it's not broken, nor does it eliminate the usefulness of any other path or discipline.
This is how I'd envision totems working.
A druid in bloodhound form can make for an excellent tracker. How quickly might the Bear plot have been solved had we one of these?
However, can't have the bloodhound becoming the defacto scout - that's not fair to the actual scouts in game. Well, the bloodhound tracks by scent alone. Poor black-and-white vision, low veiwpoint, and no hands to examine signs of passage can really limit the bloodhounds tracking ability. However, combine a Scout WITH a bloodhound, and you have an unbeatable tracking team.
Can the bloodhound fight? Sure, just not very well. Probably just character life points and a single short attack phys-rep.
Can the bloodhound use Flee? Perhaps. Dogs can be fast and agile. Would the Druid become a bloodhound just to use flee? No. Takes 30 seconds to transform, and in a situation where flee is needed, that transformation time will kill him. However, since he can't fight well, he'd probably use flee if he encountered enemies while he was tracking in bloodhound form.
This is the primary reason this particular Druid shifts to his animal form - to complement a Scout in tracking to make an uber tracking team. While the focus of this ability is powerful, it's not broken, nor does it eliminate the usefulness of any other path or discipline.
This is how I'd envision totems working.
Learn the past. Observe the present. Guide the future.
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Azara Blackhawk
See, this is where I differ from the pack on how I see a druid working.
One of the reasons I mentioned or that the pacify animal topic was brought up is that I envision a druid being one with all things in nature (Plants, anmials and what have you). Basically and not to sound cheesy, but a lot like the "Beastmaster".
The shifting idea is a neat from a role-playing standpoint, but from a mechanics standpoint it appears to be a logistical nightmere unless there is like a universal trait the animals would have, lets say for instance rage. Sure one can act like the chosen animal, but it needs to be combined with a solid mechanics solution to the skill.
I also still like the idea of the advanced form of root...being imprision...it could be used defensively as in protecting yourself from an enemy by putting up a barrier....or protecting an ally from an attack...but it can be used offensively to stop an attacking monster/bad guy.
I just think the discussion is getting to broad, creating a lot of "special cases" for all the different types of totems and all to try and put a mechanical rules system around.
Get the mechanics in place and then leave it up to the PC how to role-play it is what I think..
-Julie
One of the reasons I mentioned or that the pacify animal topic was brought up is that I envision a druid being one with all things in nature (Plants, anmials and what have you). Basically and not to sound cheesy, but a lot like the "Beastmaster".
The shifting idea is a neat from a role-playing standpoint, but from a mechanics standpoint it appears to be a logistical nightmere unless there is like a universal trait the animals would have, lets say for instance rage. Sure one can act like the chosen animal, but it needs to be combined with a solid mechanics solution to the skill.
I also still like the idea of the advanced form of root...being imprision...it could be used defensively as in protecting yourself from an enemy by putting up a barrier....or protecting an ally from an attack...but it can be used offensively to stop an attacking monster/bad guy.
I just think the discussion is getting to broad, creating a lot of "special cases" for all the different types of totems and all to try and put a mechanical rules system around.
Get the mechanics in place and then leave it up to the PC how to role-play it is what I think..
-Julie
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Tonia Glowski
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I'm saying this with a great deal of respect, but I think everyone except Todd has missed my point.
I specifically did not number the advantages, because this isn't about a formula. This is about value, which is better left unquantified and the continual use of numbers and equivalent "level" skills is annoying to no end to me. While I used some bullet points to demonstrate several EXAMPLES of how useful something is, it wasn't meant to be dissected. This doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be debated, only that I feel it should be looked at in a grand scheme.
Instead of point by point debate, the litmus test should be this: If you can't look at a hypothetical situation and say, "Yes, in that situation, it is definitely more useful than anything else," then it is a waste and unbalanced. Your examples of, "But you can get similar effects by [this] or [that]..." are all great in a PLANNED context and with MULTIPLE skills that do NOT duplicate what the Druid could do.
When all else is said and done, everything you can do with this Level 4 Druid ability, you can do NATURALLY and in 30 seconds - with no need for equipment. If you have to point to three or four different skills that could do SIMILAR but not same things, then you have a DISTINCT and UNIQUE advantage... that to me makes it valuable and fair.
Here are some answers to your generalizations about how other skills could do what I contend a Druid can currently do:
- Disguise only allows the character to disguise themselves as the same race that they are, necessarily a humanoid.
- Disguise takes over an hour.
- The Arcane Spell requires a book and someone who can cast it.
- The Arcane Spell requires 5 minutes to cast and could be interrupted. (Also is their a duration on this spell?)
- Escape Artists cannot escape "Inescapable Bonds"
- And with the exception of this Arcane Spell, you basically would need to have the following skills:
3rd Level Monk (Iron Fists)
1st Level Assassin (Disguise)
1st Level Spy (Escape Artist)
2nd Level Swashbuckler (Florentine)
**************************
Additionally, I regret my use of the word "scout" in one of the examples. I do not intend to portray Druids as Scouts, nor say that they should replace them, only that in certain situations they could be even more useful. This is true for any skill, it will have situations in which it is more useful... hence the balance. However, I've taken a look at the Scout skill and unless I've missed a rules update, the Scout skill does not appear to give the character any advantage whatsoever to go into a place and get information while undetected. Am I missing something?
p.s. My first post does not intend a size change for the character as an OOG mechanic. Only that your presence as an animal may get you somewhere you normally couldn't go. All I know is that Orcs did not attack several insects and mole men this past gather, because they weren't bothering them. So more PCs than you think are less aggressive than you portray them to be.
I specifically did not number the advantages, because this isn't about a formula. This is about value, which is better left unquantified and the continual use of numbers and equivalent "level" skills is annoying to no end to me. While I used some bullet points to demonstrate several EXAMPLES of how useful something is, it wasn't meant to be dissected. This doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be debated, only that I feel it should be looked at in a grand scheme.
Instead of point by point debate, the litmus test should be this: If you can't look at a hypothetical situation and say, "Yes, in that situation, it is definitely more useful than anything else," then it is a waste and unbalanced. Your examples of, "But you can get similar effects by [this] or [that]..." are all great in a PLANNED context and with MULTIPLE skills that do NOT duplicate what the Druid could do.
When all else is said and done, everything you can do with this Level 4 Druid ability, you can do NATURALLY and in 30 seconds - with no need for equipment. If you have to point to three or four different skills that could do SIMILAR but not same things, then you have a DISTINCT and UNIQUE advantage... that to me makes it valuable and fair.
Here are some answers to your generalizations about how other skills could do what I contend a Druid can currently do:
- Disguise only allows the character to disguise themselves as the same race that they are, necessarily a humanoid.
- Disguise takes over an hour.
- The Arcane Spell requires a book and someone who can cast it.
- The Arcane Spell requires 5 minutes to cast and could be interrupted. (Also is their a duration on this spell?)
- Escape Artists cannot escape "Inescapable Bonds"
- And with the exception of this Arcane Spell, you basically would need to have the following skills:
3rd Level Monk (Iron Fists)
1st Level Assassin (Disguise)
1st Level Spy (Escape Artist)
2nd Level Swashbuckler (Florentine)
**************************
Additionally, I regret my use of the word "scout" in one of the examples. I do not intend to portray Druids as Scouts, nor say that they should replace them, only that in certain situations they could be even more useful. This is true for any skill, it will have situations in which it is more useful... hence the balance. However, I've taken a look at the Scout skill and unless I've missed a rules update, the Scout skill does not appear to give the character any advantage whatsoever to go into a place and get information while undetected. Am I missing something?
p.s. My first post does not intend a size change for the character as an OOG mechanic. Only that your presence as an animal may get you somewhere you normally couldn't go. All I know is that Orcs did not attack several insects and mole men this past gather, because they weren't bothering them. So more PCs than you think are less aggressive than you portray them to be.
Tonia Brown
aka: Talanalassë Isilisurë the Elven Artificer (Final Haven)
Jade the Gargoyle (Final Haven)
Pasha the Sylvani Seer (Winter Haven)
Grok the Orc Head (A Pouch)
aka: Talanalassë Isilisurë the Elven Artificer (Final Haven)
Jade the Gargoyle (Final Haven)
Pasha the Sylvani Seer (Winter Haven)
Grok the Orc Head (A Pouch)
Looking over the bonuses that are not strictly mechanical I do have to say that this skill is pretty much balanced if not overpowered already. 1 4th level skill can emulate multiple skills and an arcane spell. I didn't realize that the arcane spell gave you exactly what Todd was proposing for claws and does it without the casting time. I don't think this skill is intended to be a melee skill, and there is nothing wrong with having disciplines that are not intended for that. There are some that are obviously not for melee and some that are, this just happens to be one that has a mechanical melee part to it in the claws but isn't intended to be about battle. I think it's inline with what a Druid would use the skill for mostly, to do things that can't be done in human form and to commune with other animals of that type. Not that every Druid will be like that, but most will and if you want to play a Druid out for combat then take the disciplines that are combat disciplines or warrior path and have Druid at level 1 or not at all. You could still call yourself a Druid or person of nature and role play that. There is definitely value to the skill that cannoot be easily measured against other paths and disciplines because it is something unique.
Death=Adder
One of these days...I'm going to cut you into little pieces...
~Pink Floyd~
One of these days...I'm going to cut you into little pieces...
~Pink Floyd~
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Kale
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I just lost my whole dang post cause my browser crashed...blarg.....Well, here's the short version:
1st Level Monk: Ambidexterity
So basically what we have here is the ability for a Druid of 4th level to transform himself into a really sweetly roleplayed 1st level character. One might ask: "Howso?"
You get:
1st level Monk
3rd level Monk
a neat power
Well...that neat power basically transforms into (especially if you chose Stun):
2nd level Monk
So, at various times during the day, a 4th level druid can turn into a 3rd level Monk. Now one might say, that's pretty sweet!! With the possibility that they might allow them to escape from bonds, this is completely balanced, is it not?
Well...here's the thing though... What does a 3rd level Monk have that the Animal Form does not?
A path and possibly other disciplines. The Animal Form loses this, while the Monk always has it. That is a pretty big difference.
Now do not get me wrong, I do -not- want to see the Animal Form end up getting unabalanced. I just don't want it to suck. Perhaps the Animal form is the wrong thing to have for the 4th ability. I mean, does the druid have to be able to do what a D&D druid can do when they get to high levels?
I can't see making the animal form too much more powerful because you don't want to make it better than a 4th level Monk + 1 path, simply because then a new character (4th level Druid) is 'better' than a Monk +1 path.
Food for thought.
Ok, sweet. It gives you iron fists. Very cool.3rd Level Monk (Iron Fists)
Doesn't really give you that, it is more like it gives you:2nd Level Swashbuckler (Florentine)
1st Level Monk: Ambidexterity
I disagree with this skill being anything like disguise. The primary reason being that PC's (heck, even NPC's) will often (almost always) kill an animal on sight.1st Level Assassin (Disguise)
You certain it can do that? That is kind of cool. I'm going to pretend this one thing doesn't exist for a moment, though it would only bring my "description" up to a level 2 character.1st Level Spy (Escape Artist)
So basically what we have here is the ability for a Druid of 4th level to transform himself into a really sweetly roleplayed 1st level character. One might ask: "Howso?"
You get:
1st level Monk
3rd level Monk
a neat power
Well...that neat power basically transforms into (especially if you chose Stun):
2nd level Monk
So, at various times during the day, a 4th level druid can turn into a 3rd level Monk. Now one might say, that's pretty sweet!! With the possibility that they might allow them to escape from bonds, this is completely balanced, is it not?
Well...here's the thing though... What does a 3rd level Monk have that the Animal Form does not?
A path and possibly other disciplines. The Animal Form loses this, while the Monk always has it. That is a pretty big difference.
Now do not get me wrong, I do -not- want to see the Animal Form end up getting unabalanced. I just don't want it to suck. Perhaps the Animal form is the wrong thing to have for the 4th ability. I mean, does the druid have to be able to do what a D&D druid can do when they get to high levels?
I can't see making the animal form too much more powerful because you don't want to make it better than a 4th level Monk + 1 path, simply because then a new character (4th level Druid) is 'better' than a Monk +1 path.
Food for thought.
Pentaguishine
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Tonia Glowski
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Answer this and I might be convinced. I'm tired of the point by point debate.Instead of point by point debate, the litmus test should be this: If you can't look at a hypothetical situation and say, "Yes, in that situation, it is definitely more useful than anything else," then it is a waste and unbalanced. Your examples of, "But you can get similar effects by [this] or [that]..." are all great in a PLANNED context and with MULTIPLE skills that do NOT duplicate what the Druid could do.
When all else is said and done, everything you can do with this Level 4 Druid ability, you can do NATURALLY and in 30 seconds - with no need for equipment. If you have to point to three or four different skills that could do SIMILAR but not same things, then you have a DISTINCT and UNIQUE advantage... that to me makes it valuable and fair.
Tonia Brown
aka: Talanalassë Isilisurë the Elven Artificer (Final Haven)
Jade the Gargoyle (Final Haven)
Pasha the Sylvani Seer (Winter Haven)
Grok the Orc Head (A Pouch)
aka: Talanalassë Isilisurë the Elven Artificer (Final Haven)
Jade the Gargoyle (Final Haven)
Pasha the Sylvani Seer (Winter Haven)
Grok the Orc Head (A Pouch)
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Todd
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Ok, lets go back to formula so to speak.
As-is. Druid
lvl 1; Wilderness Survival
lvl 2; No movement restrictions
lvl 3; Root
lvl 4; emulate totem
This is already a really powerful discipline.
By current definition Emulate equals, a) shifting to beast form, b) gaining claws (dagger size), c) gaining dual weild, d) getting an extra ability based on the animal chosen.
Lets compare that to the other 4th lvls
Alchemist, Arcane, and Craftsmen just get better at what they already do.
Archer, Beasthunter, Knight, Pikeman, & Undeadslayer get extra damage.
Bureaucrat, Spy, & Warlord get political power
Assassins, Barbarians, & Swashbucklers get a special attack
Man-at-arms, Monk, Scout, & Witchhunter get somekind of defensive ability.
That just leaves Interigator, and Eater of the dead. Interigators can implant suggestions, that just leaves the Eater.
The Eater of the dead can eat a creatures heart, and gain an ability. This is the closest thing we have to a floating skill. Looking at this laundry list of the usual suspects, I would say that the Druid is already more powerful than most, without any additions. Down sides low life, no skills. Other skills have down sides too, most notibly the Barb, and the Swash, effectively nutralizing Armor.
I'll admit I liked a few of the other ideas, but.. Flee, duplicates another 4th lvl. Kinda screws the Scout. Rage, dont think so but still waiting for someone to try and convince me its needed. Now I would like to spend a second on armor. The reasoning behind not figuring in armor are two-fold. 1) keeping track of lots of different #s. If I'm a dog, and I get healed while my armor is absorbed, is my armor healed? 2) Empaths have an armor restriction, lets say an Empath/Druid desides to shift. Can he put on Quality heavy plate, then shift (because he can't use skills anyway) therefor getting extra Life/Armor as a dog?
Originally I was thinking that straight life was the way to go (same numbers for Vorpal damage), but I might be inclined to include Hardened Skin. I'm on the fence with this one. Escaping bonds via shift. I like it, but that just might be the thing that puts it over the top. I dont know.
For the price of one 4th lvl skill you are getting multiple low level effects. In all honesty I think this one is balanced fairly well. I'm really having a hard time seeing why it needs more.
~fin~
As-is. Druid
lvl 1; Wilderness Survival
lvl 2; No movement restrictions
lvl 3; Root
lvl 4; emulate totem
This is already a really powerful discipline.
By current definition Emulate equals, a) shifting to beast form, b) gaining claws (dagger size), c) gaining dual weild, d) getting an extra ability based on the animal chosen.
Lets compare that to the other 4th lvls
Alchemist, Arcane, and Craftsmen just get better at what they already do.
Archer, Beasthunter, Knight, Pikeman, & Undeadslayer get extra damage.
Bureaucrat, Spy, & Warlord get political power
Assassins, Barbarians, & Swashbucklers get a special attack
Man-at-arms, Monk, Scout, & Witchhunter get somekind of defensive ability.
That just leaves Interigator, and Eater of the dead. Interigators can implant suggestions, that just leaves the Eater.
The Eater of the dead can eat a creatures heart, and gain an ability. This is the closest thing we have to a floating skill. Looking at this laundry list of the usual suspects, I would say that the Druid is already more powerful than most, without any additions. Down sides low life, no skills. Other skills have down sides too, most notibly the Barb, and the Swash, effectively nutralizing Armor.
I'll admit I liked a few of the other ideas, but.. Flee, duplicates another 4th lvl. Kinda screws the Scout. Rage, dont think so but still waiting for someone to try and convince me its needed. Now I would like to spend a second on armor. The reasoning behind not figuring in armor are two-fold. 1) keeping track of lots of different #s. If I'm a dog, and I get healed while my armor is absorbed, is my armor healed? 2) Empaths have an armor restriction, lets say an Empath/Druid desides to shift. Can he put on Quality heavy plate, then shift (because he can't use skills anyway) therefor getting extra Life/Armor as a dog?
Originally I was thinking that straight life was the way to go (same numbers for Vorpal damage), but I might be inclined to include Hardened Skin. I'm on the fence with this one. Escaping bonds via shift. I like it, but that just might be the thing that puts it over the top. I dont know.
For the price of one 4th lvl skill you are getting multiple low level effects. In all honesty I think this one is balanced fairly well. I'm really having a hard time seeing why it needs more.
~fin~
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Kale
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I hate to say it, but I think I just realized an easy fix for this. Nelkie prolly isn't gonna like it, but I believe it is waaaay more balanced.
Level 1: Wilderness Survival
Level 2: No Movement Restrictions
Level 3: Emulate Totem
Level 4: Magic Root
Magic Root (even with the 10 seconds just being 10 seconds) is way more broken than Emulate Totem will ever be. I think 3rd level is perfect for Emulate Totem. It doesn't break the Monk at Level 3 and it doesn't suck as it would at Level 4.
Magic Root however works perfectly in the Level 4 spot.
I also feel that you should be able to use all of your DRUID (only Druid) abilities (excluding stuff like extra hitpoints and such, static stuff should stay) while in animal form. ie: You can still survive in the wilderness, you can still move freely, you can still call upon the wilds to root someone.
Level 1: Wilderness Survival
Level 2: No Movement Restrictions
Level 3: Emulate Totem
Level 4: Magic Root
Magic Root (even with the 10 seconds just being 10 seconds) is way more broken than Emulate Totem will ever be. I think 3rd level is perfect for Emulate Totem. It doesn't break the Monk at Level 3 and it doesn't suck as it would at Level 4.
Magic Root however works perfectly in the Level 4 spot.
I also feel that you should be able to use all of your DRUID (only Druid) abilities (excluding stuff like extra hitpoints and such, static stuff should stay) while in animal form. ie: You can still survive in the wilderness, you can still move freely, you can still call upon the wilds to root someone.
Pentaguishine
Just for anyone who cares, iron fists is 2nd level not 3rd.
The problem with the skill is it emulates a bunch of other low level skills. If you want those skills just take them and have your effect be druidic in nature.
Just for note, balancing is tested in planned multi skill settings not the actual game. You balance for the power gamers not the role players (if this weren't so, I'd be swinging 8 right now). As for mimicing a bunch of lower skills that take forever, it isn't fair since it is so fast, and the skill is so largely undefined. Ie...
If I'm a bloodhound, what can I do? Well, that depends on the npc you ask. So does this mean that anytime Aaron shifts it requires three npcs for him to do anything? Doesn't sound too useful to me. A skill this undefined will bog down the game.
I'm still curious as to whether anyone would protest if one of the other options were used? And Todd, I don't see rage as needed (none of them are needed) but it's balanced, and is the one skill that allows for one to shift as the effect easily (ultimately lone wolves and pathers really don't have much that translates into a skill). As for flee, it doesn't screw the scout, just makes the two very similar in skills (and we've already discussed how two people with the same skills can be very different). Plus, if you notice, I chose all 4th level abilities so there is no hassle with balancing.
All in all, anyone else think we are beating a deadhorse? Everyone has their opinion and so far I haven't seen anyone budge. Very few new ideas have been brought up (even less even given note), no solutions have been agreed upon since no one agrees on what the skill can even can or cannot do. I'm throwing in my deadhorse vote.
The problem with the skill is it emulates a bunch of other low level skills. If you want those skills just take them and have your effect be druidic in nature.
Just for note, balancing is tested in planned multi skill settings not the actual game. You balance for the power gamers not the role players (if this weren't so, I'd be swinging 8 right now). As for mimicing a bunch of lower skills that take forever, it isn't fair since it is so fast, and the skill is so largely undefined. Ie...
If I'm a bloodhound, what can I do? Well, that depends on the npc you ask. So does this mean that anytime Aaron shifts it requires three npcs for him to do anything? Doesn't sound too useful to me. A skill this undefined will bog down the game.
I'm still curious as to whether anyone would protest if one of the other options were used? And Todd, I don't see rage as needed (none of them are needed) but it's balanced, and is the one skill that allows for one to shift as the effect easily (ultimately lone wolves and pathers really don't have much that translates into a skill). As for flee, it doesn't screw the scout, just makes the two very similar in skills (and we've already discussed how two people with the same skills can be very different). Plus, if you notice, I chose all 4th level abilities so there is no hassle with balancing.
All in all, anyone else think we are beating a deadhorse? Everyone has their opinion and so far I haven't seen anyone budge. Very few new ideas have been brought up (even less even given note), no solutions have been agreed upon since no one agrees on what the skill can even can or cannot do. I'm throwing in my deadhorse vote.