Removal of Limbs and such

[dier_cire]

After this event, I'd like to suggest some new ideas on this as it it didn't seem to do all that I think was hoped.

Remove the limb removal rules and replace with "Desecrate Body". It takes one minute to desecrate a dead body. A body may only be desecrated twice and each time this increases the chip draw required upon resurection by 4. This skill takes one minute to perform.

Remove the must have the whole body as there is no longer rules to remove parts of bodies.

Add in a side note (or a rules FAQ or one of the many resing parts) that parts of bodies may be removed for role playing purposes only and has no effect on the state of the body or character if/when they are brought back and may not be used for any game mechanic purposes.

Perhaps also adding that any of the Eater of Dead skills that eat parts of body do not affect the body when concerning resurection.

On a side note, the chip draw stuff is cool. It made death much scarier. Watching Nelkie draw chips was scary stuff. The dual seven chip draw rezes with awesome.

[GM_Chris]

Confused. Sounds veery symantec.

Also, are you saying a PC should not be able to esentially make it impossible to raise another person?

[dier_cire]

They can, but it would be due to to chip draw issue rather than the PC utterly destroying a piece of the body. I still don't see in the rules where it says you can destroy a body part, yet we still have people doing this.

And mostly it is symantac, but it's to get people away from our old ways of "I eat chop up your body and put a piece here and there... ". I just don't think utterly killing someone should take one minute (eater of the dead) or have no real rules tied to it (utterly destroying a body part).

[GM_Chris]

Well I am cool with changing it to desercration

There is apoint where a person is unraisable.

[Dredge]

I'm actually curious why this rule is in place in its current form. I understand that making resurrection easy becomes cheesy over time, thus the tag team Empath and Healer thing. I like the chip draw method, andI think there should be ways to make the chip draws higher. However, looking at this from a point of balance, all characters have an ability called Desecrate, allowing them to add 1 to the chip draw for every minute they spend messing with the body.

So while he is saying that a player should not make it impossible to essentially raise a person, I might. Since it takes multiple people and high level skills to overcome death, a generic every character ability trumping it feels like a cheapening of those abilities, giving less reason to get them. Also, I feel bad for that poor monk. Everybody who throws can magic right through his defense and everyone can sit and mutilate his dead body... cause why not?

My suggestion is that people can make resurrection harder, but perhaps only so much per person by varied, yet easy methods.

Maybe every Path can add one to chip draw, essentially for different reasons.

Warriors are good at finishing people off- 1 chip.
Sages know some lore that helps spirits pass on- 1 chip.
Empaths may draw 'dead' energy into the body to make it harder for the spirit to return- 1 chip.
Rogues use their backstab and knockout to further disrupt the body in more esoteric ways than the warrior- 1 chip.
Healers may remove specific small parts that the body will miss- 1 chip.

Then individual Discipline abilities that seem related- Assassin's Death Touch, Banish, Eater of Dead abilities(one chip max between skills), can add another.

And perhaps, a generic one draw for anything else. Monsters can vary at GM discretion, obviously.

The reason I thought these rules had been put in was so that random characters and NPCs would not go around collecting organs, slitting throats, etc at whim, not for increasing the number of perma kills.

[GM_Chris]

I know people are hurt that they lost their characters, but at the same time resurection needs a body. It takes no skill to create a fire and throw the body in it. It also takes no skill to take an Ax to a body and cop it up.

The heart and mind thing is in place because of hidden rules.

[GM-Mike]

I also want to remind people that these last two events are the exceptions, not the rule. It will be some time I imagine before you see NPC's chopping up players. The rules are really there so that you guys can chop each other up. There has to be a way to kill another player or the interactions become fake. With real consequences comes real drama.

[Dredge]

This is definitely not a knock on you guys, or any future NPCs, but crazy stuff happens when you release the hounds.

When I played KANAR, I NPCed all the time. I would do my best to follow what guidelines the GM gave me. However, once a massive battle went on, with a lot of newbies and PCs were playing NPCs, despite GM given advice, a lot of body mutilation and death calls were made, despite being told to only do so on specific characters.

Just don't want to see Final Haven become the character woodchipper. Rules matter, and structure determines function. If you give the rule, it will be used.

[dier_cire]

There is apoint where a person is unraisable.

And I agree with this, I just would it to be based around the volume of chips required, not due to some non-rule (tossing in the fire or chopping up). While both of those are fine in the real world, in FH, the physics of the world can be changed so that they have no effect and those type of actions produce no effects concerning coming back. It's fantasy, and here bodies just don't burn well due to the spirit protecting it.

Something like: After a certain time (ie the chips required are too great or the player gives the ok) then the body may be destroyed. Poof, we've now changed physics and worked it into the rules.

[cole45]

I like the idea that if you do enough 'Stuff' to a body, they have to draw more and more chips. You could even reach a point with too many chips. you might not even have to put a number on it. If they draw enough chips they WILL die. And if they still manage not to draw a red chip after 127 pulls from the bag(exageration) well then, i guess they deserve to live.

[GM_Chris]

The problem withthe continual increase in chips is it is even more to remember.

You could do 1 chip a minute I guess

[dier_cire]

I thought it was like one chip an hour + 4 for heart / desecration + 4 for head / desecration. After 5 hours, the person is gone no matter what we do if they are mutilated. If not, then 13 hours would be max. (due to the chip reduction spells/potions)

[GM_Chris]

it is I am entertaining cahnegs.


NOTE that no change will happen till next year. Good to talk about since I want to get the line up of changes talked, finished, and voted on before our winter vacation

[Kale]

I'd say that just a general +5 for desecration as a whole would be a good number. (JUST +5, period, no additional desecrations, just a single "whatever you do to desecrate it, and it takes a minute to do so" sort of thing)

[Tonia Glowski]

Two quick notes about the Pentag group's "desecrations" this weekend:

#1 - None of us were Eaters of the Dead or any hidden disciplines. We were just sick twisted individuals enjoying the flesh of our fallen foes and ensuring they wouldn't be a threat to us in the future.

#2 - Systematically every single PC we killed suffered the exact same fate of desecration if the time was available (and the only exceptions I can think of were Kels and Gideon), as my very own PC Grok was the first permanent casualty of the event, having been killed, decapitated and her heart torn out. It sucked. I loved playing Grok. It also sucked doing the same thing to my very own in-game leader Atrum. But it was done consistently and without debate.