Ok, the discussion at Lil Chef after the playtesting got me thinking about the dwarven racial boon. It is the only racial boon that is not usable by every path/discipline as it is worded. If you drop all fractions then you need to be in Medium armour to gain your first +1. This means that a dwarven empath, Arcane, 3rd or 4th level assassin, or swashbuckler get no benefit from the racial boon because their skills are limited to light armour or less.
If you say that you drop fractions with a minimum of one then a dwarven arcane still gets the shaft. Also, a naked dwarf in a helmet is getting the same armour bonus as a dwarf in heavy arms, legs, and breastplate (3+3+3=9*20% = +1.8. Drop fractions to 1). In that scenerio, the only time that 20% is different than just a flat +1 is if the dwarf is wearing Full Plate and a helmet or if the dwarf is a warrior and can stack the bonus.
I think we should change the dwarven racial boon. Here are some ideas:
1) Shields dont raise the dwarf's armour catagory
2) +1 LP or +1 hardened skin
3) Boulder Throwing
4)A flat +1 armour bonus (Added after % bonuses, It is the first Armour point lost, and the dwarf must be wearing atleast 3 AP to gain the benefit.)
The Dwarven Racial Boon
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The Dwarven Racial Boon
Wayne O
The Game Master Lite
Frag the weak, Hurdle the dead!
The Game Master Lite
Frag the weak, Hurdle the dead!
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Bob-Z (kabre)
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I kinda dig number 1 (just cuz it fits my current character really well). It would be nice to be able to fire my crossbow without having to drop my shield first (lowering my armor cat. back into medium from heavy). Conversely, how would that affect percentage increases to armor? im not sure how it works anymore, but i know last event i had a few mor armor points when i grabbed my shield (thus giving me heavy).
Just had an afterthought, Re: heavy crossbow. If something like this "shield doesn't increase AC" thing gets the green light, would i be able to use the edge of my shield to steady the forend of my crossbow? i know we were talking about having to use two hands on a heavy crossbow, and wonder if that would suffice?
Just had an afterthought, Re: heavy crossbow. If something like this "shield doesn't increase AC" thing gets the green light, would i be able to use the edge of my shield to steady the forend of my crossbow? i know we were talking about having to use two hands on a heavy crossbow, and wonder if that would suffice?
Moo.
I actually thought about it some and the min of 1 thing isn't actually so bad since its only affecting people with 1 to 4 armor points, yeilding 2 to 5. It's still so low to ineffectual in combat anyway. However, it does suck that they don't get the second bonus till 10 (full heavy armor) but you'd normally be a warrior in that instance anyway.
I wouldn't mind the +1 armor flat, but it is sorta if they have to wear a certain amount of armor to gain it, it isn't any better than the flat 20%.
Personal favorite is the +1 harden skin. It's not a life point and deosn't require wearing armor.
Btw, anyone care if I post all the other stuff, once I get a chance?
I wouldn't mind the +1 armor flat, but it is sorta if they have to wear a certain amount of armor to gain it, it isn't any better than the flat 20%.
Personal favorite is the +1 harden skin. It's not a life point and deosn't require wearing armor.
Btw, anyone care if I post all the other stuff, once I get a chance?
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Todd
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I still like the idea of allowing all Warriors to use sheilds without raising their armor class.
A heavy cross bow would probly be concidered a two handed weapon, one of the rule proposed at the playtest was that two handed weapons couldn't be used with anything larger than a buckler.
Ried, go ahead and post them in this forum, and label it 'Proposed Rule Changes 2/21' everyone can look them over and make some comments. Then any final decisions can be made.
A heavy cross bow would probly be concidered a two handed weapon, one of the rule proposed at the playtest was that two handed weapons couldn't be used with anything larger than a buckler.
Ried, go ahead and post them in this forum, and label it 'Proposed Rule Changes 2/21' everyone can look them over and make some comments. Then any final decisions can be made.
~the Lunatic fringe~
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Bob-Z (kabre)
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In response to Todd:
The proposed rule at the playtest was specific to a spear, i thought. That makes a lot of sense given the size of a spear and the absolute impossibility to wield it effectively with one hand stretched out. A heavy crossbow is a much smaller weapon with an inhearant increase in stability given its shoulder stock. the foregrip is just a stabilizer, which a shield would do just fine (it would act like a bench rest for a gun...)
I'm not worried about it, I doubt that Wayne's #1 proposal will happen anyway (people seem more intersted in the harden skin).
The proposed rule at the playtest was specific to a spear, i thought. That makes a lot of sense given the size of a spear and the absolute impossibility to wield it effectively with one hand stretched out. A heavy crossbow is a much smaller weapon with an inhearant increase in stability given its shoulder stock. the foregrip is just a stabilizer, which a shield would do just fine (it would act like a bench rest for a gun...)
I'm not worried about it, I doubt that Wayne's #1 proposal will happen anyway (people seem more intersted in the harden skin).
Moo.
I like the +1 armor added after the %, it keeps with what you guys originally intended for the Dwarf, the harden skin is alot like life.
Bob, the shield doesn't grant you any armor pts it just raises the armor category so a healer in Med armor with a shield would need to drop his shield to use his skills that are limited to Med armor.
Bob, the shield doesn't grant you any armor pts it just raises the armor category so a healer in Med armor with a shield would need to drop his shield to use his skills that are limited to Med armor.
Death=Adder
One of these days...I'm going to cut you into little pieces...
~Pink Floyd~
One of these days...I'm going to cut you into little pieces...
~Pink Floyd~
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Bob-Z (kabre)
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Erik,
I know all that about the shield and armor category. Waynes first suggestion was making it possible for dwarves to maintain their current armor category (in my case medium) whether or not they had a sheild up. I was saying i like that because In order to use a ranged weapon, I have to be in medium armor. This forces me to drop my shield when i want to shoot my crossbow. I thought it would be cool to be able to have my shield protecting me from incoming attacks while I took my shot (as opposed to droping my shield, charging my shot, taking the shot, dropping the bow, picking up the shield and moving into melee).
I think above when i mentioned my increase in armor POINTS after I picked up my shield was in reference to the fact that my percentage increase to my armor (whatever it was... 25% maybe) was greater in heavy armor than in medium. maybe i was never clear on how that worked. If having a shield raises my armor category to heavy, that doesn't mean that all my armor gets "heavy" points? i guess what im realizing/asking is if the only reason its stated that you have "heavy" armor when you have a shield is to inhibit skills, but not actually give you any "heavy" benefits
I know all that about the shield and armor category. Waynes first suggestion was making it possible for dwarves to maintain their current armor category (in my case medium) whether or not they had a sheild up. I was saying i like that because In order to use a ranged weapon, I have to be in medium armor. This forces me to drop my shield when i want to shoot my crossbow. I thought it would be cool to be able to have my shield protecting me from incoming attacks while I took my shot (as opposed to droping my shield, charging my shot, taking the shot, dropping the bow, picking up the shield and moving into melee).
I think above when i mentioned my increase in armor POINTS after I picked up my shield was in reference to the fact that my percentage increase to my armor (whatever it was... 25% maybe) was greater in heavy armor than in medium. maybe i was never clear on how that worked. If having a shield raises my armor category to heavy, that doesn't mean that all my armor gets "heavy" points? i guess what im realizing/asking is if the only reason its stated that you have "heavy" armor when you have a shield is to inhibit skills, but not actually give you any "heavy" benefits
Moo.
Yeah, the dropping of the shield is a pain but somehow having the crossbow being the exception to the two handed rule kinda sucks for those spear wielding thieves.Bob-Z (kabre) wrote:Erik,
I know all that about the shield and armor category. Waynes first suggestion was making it possible for dwarves to maintain their current armor category (in my case medium) whether or not they had a sheild up. I was saying i like that because In order to use a ranged weapon, I have to be in medium armor. This forces me to drop my shield when i want to shoot my crossbow. I thought it would be cool to be able to have my shield protecting me from incoming attacks while I took my shot (as opposed to droping my shield, charging my shot, taking the shot, dropping the bow, picking up the shield and moving into melee).
I think above when i mentioned my increase in armor POINTS after I picked up my shield was in reference to the fact that my percentage increase to my armor (whatever it was... 25% maybe) was greater in heavy armor than in medium. maybe i was never clear on how that worked. If having a shield raises my armor category to heavy, that doesn't mean that all my armor gets "heavy" points? i guess what im realizing/asking is if the only reason its stated that you have "heavy" armor when you have a shield is to inhibit skills, but not actually give you any "heavy" benefits
As for the armor rules, you misinterrepted the raises armor category. This does not mean you get more points. If you are wearing light armor and you grab a shield, you do not get meduim armor points. You get light armor points but are in meduim armor for purposes of paths and disciplines. Make sense?
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Todd
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OK, I think I solved our 'Armor' problem. I'm in a hurry so it might not be as clear as intended, but its actually pretty easy to follow. The way I see it most of our problems have come from the 'percentage/fraction' area. Remove these and give everything a flat rate bonus, and the problem is solved. Solution;
Armor points are by location, for Body, Arms, Legs (light=1, medium=2, heavy=3) Helmets add a +1 bonus at the end.
Barbarian, and Warlord maintain 'Hardened Skin' While the knight gets 'Utilize Armor' adding a +2 bonus at the end
Dwarven Boon; Utilize Armor. +1 armor point per location worn.
Warrior Path; Basic- Utilize sheild, A sheild no longer increases armor catagory. Advanced- Utilize Armor, +1 armor point per location worn. Master- Utilize Armor, increases to +2 armor points per location worn.
End result= Full Path Dwarven, Warrior, Knight, wearing full 'Quality Heavy' Armor would have 24 points of armor.
(9 for heavy, +3 for quality, +6 for utilize, +2 for Knight, +3 for Dwarf, +1 for helmet)
flawless!
If that seems like just a hair too much we could make the Dwarven Boon a flat +1, like the helmet for a total of 22. (9+3+6+2+1+1) The question is, as a Boon is +3 armor, a fair equivelent to a +3 Elven Boom, or other racial Boons.
I think yes.
Armor points are by location, for Body, Arms, Legs (light=1, medium=2, heavy=3) Helmets add a +1 bonus at the end.
Barbarian, and Warlord maintain 'Hardened Skin' While the knight gets 'Utilize Armor' adding a +2 bonus at the end
Dwarven Boon; Utilize Armor. +1 armor point per location worn.
Warrior Path; Basic- Utilize sheild, A sheild no longer increases armor catagory. Advanced- Utilize Armor, +1 armor point per location worn. Master- Utilize Armor, increases to +2 armor points per location worn.
End result= Full Path Dwarven, Warrior, Knight, wearing full 'Quality Heavy' Armor would have 24 points of armor.
(9 for heavy, +3 for quality, +6 for utilize, +2 for Knight, +3 for Dwarf, +1 for helmet)
flawless!
If that seems like just a hair too much we could make the Dwarven Boon a flat +1, like the helmet for a total of 22. (9+3+6+2+1+1) The question is, as a Boon is +3 armor, a fair equivelent to a +3 Elven Boom, or other racial Boons.
I think yes.
I personally don't like the idea of standing next to a swashbuckler as Ka and the difference being 8 armor points. (10 and 18) I'll be more than glad to change Ka to a dwarf however...
This makes a dwarf in quality light armor have equilvant to heavy armor. This is better than a 2 point helmet how?
The problem with this isn't the fact that warriors and non warriors are any different, it's that the difference between warrior in light and warrior in heavy is very small. It just makes light and medium way more useful than heavy. Also the dwarf bonus is _way_ too big.
Finally, the shield having no effect on armor category is too big of a rule breaker. This should not be a skill at any level and the guild bonus needs to be removed. It's too powerful.
This makes a dwarf in quality light armor have equilvant to heavy armor. This is better than a 2 point helmet how?
The problem with this isn't the fact that warriors and non warriors are any different, it's that the difference between warrior in light and warrior in heavy is very small. It just makes light and medium way more useful than heavy. Also the dwarf bonus is _way_ too big.
Finally, the shield having no effect on armor category is too big of a rule breaker. This should not be a skill at any level and the guild bonus needs to be removed. It's too powerful.
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Todd
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Reid said;
I'd like to hear some more thoughts on this. Bob your playing a Dwarf, whats your opinion?
How much of a gap do you think there should be? Assuming they are full Path Warriors of course.I personally don't like the idea of standing next to a swashbuckler as Ka and the difference being 8 armor points. (10 and 18) I'll be more than glad to change Ka to a dwarf however...
For starters it requires them to actually wear armor, secondly you are compairing 'quality' to 'non-quality' hardly an equal comparison.This makes a dwarf in quality light armor have equilvant to heavy armor. This is better than a 2 point helmet how?
Again, how much of a gap do you suggest? The dwarf bonus is big, thats why I mentioned the flat +1, but I dont know if I'd go so far as to say 'way too big'. Were talking about a 2 point difference here, hardly 'way'.The problem with this isn't the fact that warriors and non warriors are any different, it's that the difference between warrior in light and warrior in heavy is very small. It just makes light and medium way more useful than heavy. Also the dwarf bonus is _way_ too big.
I fail to see how this could be concidered a rule breaker. But I agree that as a guild bonus it should probly rate higher than a three, but thats why the guild stuff is being reviewed.Finally, the shield having no effect on armor category is too big of a rule breaker. This should not be a skill at any level and the guild bonus needs to be removed. It's too powerful.
I'd like to hear some more thoughts on this. Bob your playing a Dwarf, whats your opinion?
Armor
AH, Armor, my most favorite subject.
Here is the numbers, I will be comparing the current armor system verus Tods suggestion.
Total Max Life, armor, costume, buffs, 20th level,guild bonus
Old: 42
New: 43
Max Armor Possible: knight/Dwarf/Full warrior/Quality heavy plate
Old max Armor: 23
new max Armor: 24
Swashbuckler max: Limit to light armor (Dwarf/Full Warrior/Quality)
Old max: 10
New max: 16
That is 6 more hits a swash buckler can take while they is doing 2 vorpal
Max Light Armor: Knight/Dwarf/Full Warrior/Quality
Old Max: 11
New Max: 18
Max Medium Armor: Knight/Dwarf/Full Warrior/Quality
Old Max: 17
New Max: 21
As you can see the lower armors get a big benifit from the new rule suggestion. To keep the values balanced this is what I suggest
1. Knight/Dwarf/warrior/quality get extra armor per location (legs,arms,chest) This is prevent a person from walk in with a 6 point armor helemt.
To keep the armor values balanced use this rule: Light & Medium armor get + .5 per location (the expection is quality which grant +1 armor per location for all armors). Heavy gets + 1 per location. Fractions round down for light and Fractions round up with heavy (The rounding is applied for each skill that grant armor before the total is add together with min of 1.
Example:
Light leg/Arms/Chest: Dwarf Bonus: 1.5, round down 1
Light leg/Arms/Chest: Knight Bonus: 1.5, round down 1
Light leg/Arms/Chest: Warrior Bonus: 3, round down 3
Light leg/Arms/Chest: Quality: 3, round down 3
Total: 8 bonus + 4 = 12 total armor
New values under suggestion
Total Max Life, armor, costume, buffs, 20th level,guild bonus
Old: 42
New S: 44
Max Armor Possible: knight/Dwarf/Full warrior/Quality heavy plate
Old max Armor: 23
new S max Armor: 25
Swashbuckler max: Limit to light armor (Dwarf/Full Warrior/Quality)
Old max: 10
New S max: 11
Max Light Armor: Knight/Dwarf/Full Warrior/Quality
Old Max: 11
New S Max: 12
Max Medium Armor: Knight/Dwarf/Full Warrior/Quality
Old Max: 17
New S Max: 17
It keeps the armor values balanced and is still a pentality to wear light armor & medium armor compared to heavy. This will prevent very nasty monks, and swashbuckler from running around causeing problems.
Ok here is my thought on shield issue.
There should be no skill in game that prevents a shield from giving +1 to ones armor rating or category. The skill does not effect the warrior for the most part because none of his skills are limited by their armor. Same goes with most warrior disaplines. The expection is monk and swash buckler. So even if it the shield benifit is increased to level 2 or 3 warrior, it still does not give a bonus to the warrior, expect if they are a swash buckler or monk.
What gets dangerous is when a non-warrior has no shield restrictions.
You can have an empath with a shield, buskler, wearing 7 armor, and still be able to all their abilities. Very nasty.
You can have an thief/healer with a shield, buskler, wearing 10 armor, and still be able to all their abilities. Very nasty.
And as NPC's do you want to fight a large group of people with shields & bucklers and still have armor to go through. This does not give you much area to hit a person, not to mention the shield walls you would have to go through. You might say that is what Booms are for, but the sage can give resist magic which counters that.
Here is the numbers, I will be comparing the current armor system verus Tods suggestion.
Total Max Life, armor, costume, buffs, 20th level,guild bonus
Old: 42
New: 43
Max Armor Possible: knight/Dwarf/Full warrior/Quality heavy plate
Old max Armor: 23
new max Armor: 24
Swashbuckler max: Limit to light armor (Dwarf/Full Warrior/Quality)
Old max: 10
New max: 16
That is 6 more hits a swash buckler can take while they is doing 2 vorpal
Max Light Armor: Knight/Dwarf/Full Warrior/Quality
Old Max: 11
New Max: 18
Max Medium Armor: Knight/Dwarf/Full Warrior/Quality
Old Max: 17
New Max: 21
As you can see the lower armors get a big benifit from the new rule suggestion. To keep the values balanced this is what I suggest
1. Knight/Dwarf/warrior/quality get extra armor per location (legs,arms,chest) This is prevent a person from walk in with a 6 point armor helemt.
To keep the armor values balanced use this rule: Light & Medium armor get + .5 per location (the expection is quality which grant +1 armor per location for all armors). Heavy gets + 1 per location. Fractions round down for light and Fractions round up with heavy (The rounding is applied for each skill that grant armor before the total is add together with min of 1.
Example:
Light leg/Arms/Chest: Dwarf Bonus: 1.5, round down 1
Light leg/Arms/Chest: Knight Bonus: 1.5, round down 1
Light leg/Arms/Chest: Warrior Bonus: 3, round down 3
Light leg/Arms/Chest: Quality: 3, round down 3
Total: 8 bonus + 4 = 12 total armor
New values under suggestion
Total Max Life, armor, costume, buffs, 20th level,guild bonus
Old: 42
New S: 44
Max Armor Possible: knight/Dwarf/Full warrior/Quality heavy plate
Old max Armor: 23
new S max Armor: 25
Swashbuckler max: Limit to light armor (Dwarf/Full Warrior/Quality)
Old max: 10
New S max: 11
Max Light Armor: Knight/Dwarf/Full Warrior/Quality
Old Max: 11
New S Max: 12
Max Medium Armor: Knight/Dwarf/Full Warrior/Quality
Old Max: 17
New S Max: 17
It keeps the armor values balanced and is still a pentality to wear light armor & medium armor compared to heavy. This will prevent very nasty monks, and swashbuckler from running around causeing problems.
Ok here is my thought on shield issue.
There should be no skill in game that prevents a shield from giving +1 to ones armor rating or category. The skill does not effect the warrior for the most part because none of his skills are limited by their armor. Same goes with most warrior disaplines. The expection is monk and swash buckler. So even if it the shield benifit is increased to level 2 or 3 warrior, it still does not give a bonus to the warrior, expect if they are a swash buckler or monk.
What gets dangerous is when a non-warrior has no shield restrictions.
You can have an empath with a shield, buskler, wearing 7 armor, and still be able to all their abilities. Very nasty.
You can have an thief/healer with a shield, buskler, wearing 10 armor, and still be able to all their abilities. Very nasty.
And as NPC's do you want to fight a large group of people with shields & bucklers and still have armor to go through. This does not give you much area to hit a person, not to mention the shield walls you would have to go through. You might say that is what Booms are for, but the sage can give resist magic which counters that.
My Thoughts
Aaron
Aaron
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Todd
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At a glance I can see the difference, but I'm still not sure were comparing apples to apples. I'll look at it more closely later. One thing I'm fairly addamate about is no Fractions, or rounding.
Oh, and that bonus' only apply to armor worn (Body/Arms/Legs), A helmet gives a Bonus to armor. It cannot recieve Bonus's.
Oh, and that bonus' only apply to armor worn (Body/Arms/Legs), A helmet gives a Bonus to armor. It cannot recieve Bonus's.
[quote="ToddFor starters it requires them to actually wear armor, secondly you are compairing 'quality' to 'non-quality' hardly an equal comparison.[/quote]
Light armor is hardly wearing armor. It's a cheap leather jacket, a condom hat, and a couple of pieces of vinyl strapped one's legs.
Though I'll have to decipher the math, I think I like Aaron's idea. Ratios all stay in line, which was my beef.
As for the shield thing, basically, it makes having 1st level warrior great for a non warrior. There are enough higher level warrior skills that add nothing to combat tactics already (I would like to see one more warrior skill that'd vary up combat a little) so moving the shield bonus to a higher level isn't really a good answer. At any rate, having a 3rd level guild power be a basic path ability is unbalanced in favor of the path.
Light armor is hardly wearing armor. It's a cheap leather jacket, a condom hat, and a couple of pieces of vinyl strapped one's legs.
Though I'll have to decipher the math, I think I like Aaron's idea. Ratios all stay in line, which was my beef.
As for the shield thing, basically, it makes having 1st level warrior great for a non warrior. There are enough higher level warrior skills that add nothing to combat tactics already (I would like to see one more warrior skill that'd vary up combat a little) so moving the shield bonus to a higher level isn't really a good answer. At any rate, having a 3rd level guild power be a basic path ability is unbalanced in favor of the path.