As most of you know, I rarely involve myself in rule discussions. I'll play the game no matter what the rules are. However, I think that before the season starts, we should all have a meaningful discussion on the worst rule in the game.
Detect Lie.
That's right, the skill sucks. Nothing counters it, things can be twisted whatever way you want them to be anyway so that you're technically not lying, and it's just an unfair skill overall, in my opinion. Its existance makes it impossible to play a character that isn't all sunshine and teddy bears (or a character who's infiltrating Pentag's posse), and actually make roleplaying meaningful. I think it would be much more appropriate to just get rid of the skill altogether.
Ok I goofed, there is a skill to counter it. However, many healers just do first aid directly after the question is answered to determine whether or not that person just spent a life point to counter the questioning. Therefore... it's stupid.
It is seriously impossible to play a middle or evil character while every 30 seconds someone is saying "oh detect lie." It makes the characters lose some diversity and makes it not fun to play occasionally. And even if you are playing an evil character in theory, you're playing a good or grey area one. Because anytime you do decide to do something bad, it's not even worth it since you're going to get detect lie-d every 3 seconds and then killed when they find out you are lying. (Or tell the truth and then get beheaded and cremated anyway, haha.) Lame.
The GM's are always saying how they want more PC strife, and I think the perfect way to let them have their way is to get rid of this cheesy and game breaking skill.
And, yeah. That's my only rule opinion, so I really hope everyone will at least consider it.
detect lie
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Onyksi Rin'oviryn
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Doctor Erasmus
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One thing that I'm in favor of to reduce the cheese factor of this equation is to allow a conscious player to refuse healing. This way if the Detect Lie / Status( or first aid, whatever) combo is used it can be countered.
Now is this a cause for suspicion, possibly. However, is your life total anyones damn business? No. I'm hoping there will be some clarification on the healer ability to determine how damaged a person is by next season as that will tie into this as it is something that needs to be addressed.
Also, people need to not cheesedick this skill. Last event, Corbyn nailed my character dead to rights lying and I just had to suck it up. From that point on though I had to be much more careful what I said. The damage was done but at the same time, he didn't know what exactly I was lying about... only that my statement wasn't the whole truth. Its not as foolproof as people think.
I've also seen some people using it incorrectly. They'll ask a question, the target will respond with a yes or no, and they detect lie it. A statement needs to be made to use the skill and people need to realize that.
Now is this a cause for suspicion, possibly. However, is your life total anyones damn business? No. I'm hoping there will be some clarification on the healer ability to determine how damaged a person is by next season as that will tie into this as it is something that needs to be addressed.
Also, people need to not cheesedick this skill. Last event, Corbyn nailed my character dead to rights lying and I just had to suck it up. From that point on though I had to be much more careful what I said. The damage was done but at the same time, he didn't know what exactly I was lying about... only that my statement wasn't the whole truth. Its not as foolproof as people think.
I've also seen some people using it incorrectly. They'll ask a question, the target will respond with a yes or no, and they detect lie it. A statement needs to be made to use the skill and people need to realize that.
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Onyksi Rin'oviryn
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I agree that your life point total is nobody's business, however, that's not how it works. If you refuse to tell the healer what you're at, you're caught anyway.
And due to the year before last's huge detect lie fiasco, it was ruled that you may in fact question somebody and do detect lie on their yes or no answer.
My whole problem is that it is being overused and is hampering the roleplaying environment. Also, it is basically a skill that is completely dependant on the memory of the players, which often have conflicting views. It's not at all reliable, as many of the Jux/Arthos and Orcs/Pheonix situations have proved in the past. Those who were there for that know what I mean.
My criticism of the skill has been growing for almost 3 years, and has reached a boiling point.
And due to the year before last's huge detect lie fiasco, it was ruled that you may in fact question somebody and do detect lie on their yes or no answer.
My whole problem is that it is being overused and is hampering the roleplaying environment. Also, it is basically a skill that is completely dependant on the memory of the players, which often have conflicting views. It's not at all reliable, as many of the Jux/Arthos and Orcs/Pheonix situations have proved in the past. Those who were there for that know what I mean.
My criticism of the skill has been growing for almost 3 years, and has reached a boiling point.
Well, if both became charge up skills (in all honesty to really detect lie, you'd need to study the person for a bit anyway) and the resist took less time to charge then you could feasibly not get caught however this would result in the "poke, poke, poke" tactic to keep the victim from charging.
Then again the resist became an immunity (maybe have a life point for a scene, which could stil be cheesed but would be a much greater form of cheese)
Part of the problem is also much of the game operates on small town rules. If everyone knows each other, it's tough to get away with anything for long. If people don't like the way you look or act, you aren't going to feel welcome at best, or you'll find yourself tied to a horse traveling out of town, or worse... They don't need proof, they need an excuse. It sucks but it's the way of things. Trust me, I lost a character to a fake email (who wasn't even evil amazingly). It sucked but I moved on.
Then again the resist became an immunity (maybe have a life point for a scene, which could stil be cheesed but would be a much greater form of cheese)
Part of the problem is also much of the game operates on small town rules. If everyone knows each other, it's tough to get away with anything for long. If people don't like the way you look or act, you aren't going to feel welcome at best, or you'll find yourself tied to a horse traveling out of town, or worse... They don't need proof, they need an excuse. It sucks but it's the way of things. Trust me, I lost a character to a fake email (who wasn't even evil amazingly). It sucked but I moved on.
My posts in no way reflect that of anyone else nor are they in any way official.
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Doctor Erasmus
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I must point out however that even modern lie detector tests have one severe problem. If the individual beleives what they are saying is true, the testing device will not react.
This plays into the problem you mentioned (Orc/Phoenix, Arthos/Jux, etc.) as the tested individual is actually being quetioned on what they percieved, not what the reality was or may have been. That is why I feel the skill does have problems that should be addressed, but do not feel it is in anyway too powerful.
Is it an annoying skill, often. Is it sometimes abused, maybe. Is it easy to verbally sidestep if you're careful and its results frequently misread, absolutely.
This plays into the problem you mentioned (Orc/Phoenix, Arthos/Jux, etc.) as the tested individual is actually being quetioned on what they percieved, not what the reality was or may have been. That is why I feel the skill does have problems that should be addressed, but do not feel it is in anyway too powerful.
Is it an annoying skill, often. Is it sometimes abused, maybe. Is it easy to verbally sidestep if you're careful and its results frequently misread, absolutely.
Well, One answer would be to lie when someone checks your status. I mean, right now there is NO actual listed skill that lets you see how many life points someone has. That would keep the healer cheesedick down.
There was talk ealier by GMs about how to de-cheesify Detect Lie, as it is the ruination of much roleplaying and plot. So it may be being worked on.
There was talk ealier by GMs about how to de-cheesify Detect Lie, as it is the ruination of much roleplaying and plot. So it may be being worked on.
Travis Cole
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Onyksi Rin'oviryn
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Onimaster
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I think as a skill Detect Lie is good, and has a distinct place in the game.
The corrections I'd suggest are make Spy's Total Confidence an immunity to detect lie instead of a resist, and swap level 2 & 3 Interrogator. That will give an immunity to it for deceptive characters, and make it less accessible so fewer people will have it. And while Interrogate gives a more complete answer than detect lie I do think it's easier to grill answers out of someone than a straight cold read in real life, and the time involved with the two skills I think makes more sense to flip them.
The corrections I'd suggest are make Spy's Total Confidence an immunity to detect lie instead of a resist, and swap level 2 & 3 Interrogator. That will give an immunity to it for deceptive characters, and make it less accessible so fewer people will have it. And while Interrogate gives a more complete answer than detect lie I do think it's easier to grill answers out of someone than a straight cold read in real life, and the time involved with the two skills I think makes more sense to flip them.
Vaal Draconus,
Dwarven King
Survivor of the Dreaming
& Champion of Life.
or
Nikolai Petrov,
Traveling Cossack Sage
Dwarven King
Survivor of the Dreaming
& Champion of Life.
or
Nikolai Petrov,
Traveling Cossack Sage
I think the interrogator discipline should look like:
Level 1: Inescapable Bonds
The interrogator can tie a person up so thoroughly that they cannot escape their bonds without outside help. It takes three minutes to use.
Level 2: Know Truth
It takes 5 minutes per LP to interrogate a person or monster (you must be able to communicate with the Target). Time equal to the target's max life must be spent. Thus a target with a maximum of 10 life points would take 50 minutes to interrogate. At this point the target is at 0 life points. The interrogator may determine if any statements the target makes while they are in this state are true or false. The target is not compelled to answer any questions. The target may spend a hero point to go unconscious. If the interrogator also has the Healer's Torture skill, then it takes only 1 minute per life point to interrogate the target.
Level 3: Interrogate
It takes 5 minutes per LP to torture a person or monster if you can communicate with them. You must spend time equal to their max life. Thus a person with a maximum of 10 life would take 50 minutes to torture. At this point the target is at 0 life and must give a truthful answer to one question or spend a hero point to go unconscious. It takes the same amount of time to ask a second question. If you have the Healer's Torture skill, then it takes only 1 minute a point.
Level 4: Plant suggestion
You can implant orders in a person without their knowledge (i.e. they do not remember who tortured them) to carry out a task. The person must be tortured down to zero life before a suggestion can be made. A command must be accompanied with a trigger of some kind. For example, an Interrogator could command a person: "At midnight, go into the inn and kill yourself." At midnight is the trigger for the command to kill yourself. The suggestion lasts until the command is completed or until it is replaced with another command. There can only be one trigger and one action. Thus, you cannot command them to answer all of your questions. A character can only have one hypnotic suggestion at a time. You can also find out if someone is under the effects of a charm or hypnotic suggestion. Again, a person must be tortured to zero first. You may torture them to zero twice to discover who the torturer was.
The above changes would result in the following change to spy:
Spy Level 3: Total Confidence
At this level the spy has learned to have total faith in his abilities of misdirection, and may project this calm with surgical precision. This allows him to mask the ticks and tells of his conscience whenever lying. The spy may resist the "Know Truth" skill and does not need to declare they are doing so; however, after the scene they must explain to a Game Master in private they have done so.
Level 1: Inescapable Bonds
The interrogator can tie a person up so thoroughly that they cannot escape their bonds without outside help. It takes three minutes to use.
Level 2: Know Truth
It takes 5 minutes per LP to interrogate a person or monster (you must be able to communicate with the Target). Time equal to the target's max life must be spent. Thus a target with a maximum of 10 life points would take 50 minutes to interrogate. At this point the target is at 0 life points. The interrogator may determine if any statements the target makes while they are in this state are true or false. The target is not compelled to answer any questions. The target may spend a hero point to go unconscious. If the interrogator also has the Healer's Torture skill, then it takes only 1 minute per life point to interrogate the target.
Level 3: Interrogate
It takes 5 minutes per LP to torture a person or monster if you can communicate with them. You must spend time equal to their max life. Thus a person with a maximum of 10 life would take 50 minutes to torture. At this point the target is at 0 life and must give a truthful answer to one question or spend a hero point to go unconscious. It takes the same amount of time to ask a second question. If you have the Healer's Torture skill, then it takes only 1 minute a point.
Level 4: Plant suggestion
You can implant orders in a person without their knowledge (i.e. they do not remember who tortured them) to carry out a task. The person must be tortured down to zero life before a suggestion can be made. A command must be accompanied with a trigger of some kind. For example, an Interrogator could command a person: "At midnight, go into the inn and kill yourself." At midnight is the trigger for the command to kill yourself. The suggestion lasts until the command is completed or until it is replaced with another command. There can only be one trigger and one action. Thus, you cannot command them to answer all of your questions. A character can only have one hypnotic suggestion at a time. You can also find out if someone is under the effects of a charm or hypnotic suggestion. Again, a person must be tortured to zero first. You may torture them to zero twice to discover who the torturer was.
The above changes would result in the following change to spy:
Spy Level 3: Total Confidence
At this level the spy has learned to have total faith in his abilities of misdirection, and may project this calm with surgical precision. This allows him to mask the ticks and tells of his conscience whenever lying. The spy may resist the "Know Truth" skill and does not need to declare they are doing so; however, after the scene they must explain to a Game Master in private they have done so.
Wayne O
The Game Master Lite
Frag the weak, Hurdle the dead!
The Game Master Lite
Frag the weak, Hurdle the dead!
Detect lie should stay. Obviously there are problems with it for PC/PC interaction, but it is critical and allows for great RP opportunities with PC/NPC discussions. With the PC/PC stuff, memory issues aside, this skill relies on the honor system. It's in the same boat as counting hits on oneself. We have had other cracks in the honor system such as not physrepping the carrying of many large objects, or some folks telling people out of game who killed/attacked their characters, but haven't rewritten a discipline because of them.
Wayne, If I have to spend five to ten minutes interrogating a person in order to get them to 0 so I can figure out if the one statement in the conversation I care about it true or not...I don't see how that is in improvement over detect lie. IMO the issues here are manipulation of wordplay, memory, honesty, etc., and Know Truth doesn't seem to rectify the situation.
I think Matt's suggestions make sense and support them. Whatever we do mechanically we have the same issue. We rely on honorable, good role-playing for this skill, and I think we have that the vast majority of the time. I have just learned that I will never trust anyone from Frostfell, as they all said 'resist' when I tried to detect lie. Apparenly killing a Yeti and hiding the truth are equally key components of becoming a bear rider.
Wayne, If I have to spend five to ten minutes interrogating a person in order to get them to 0 so I can figure out if the one statement in the conversation I care about it true or not...I don't see how that is in improvement over detect lie. IMO the issues here are manipulation of wordplay, memory, honesty, etc., and Know Truth doesn't seem to rectify the situation.
I think Matt's suggestions make sense and support them. Whatever we do mechanically we have the same issue. We rely on honorable, good role-playing for this skill, and I think we have that the vast majority of the time. I have just learned that I will never trust anyone from Frostfell, as they all said 'resist' when I tried to detect lie. Apparenly killing a Yeti and hiding the truth are equally key components of becoming a bear rider.
Corbyn Gravesbane
Lord High Cavalier
The Hand of Woodhold
Elder of Final Haven
Lord High Cavalier
The Hand of Woodhold
Elder of Final Haven
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Lambic
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I would add that their were at least 2 instances last event where it did us little good. Claude was found out to have lied, but that information didn't get passed on to the right people and he was able to get the sword with no blood shed. Also on Sunday morning, I believe almost everyone in town was questioned to no avail. We still don't know who the thief is.
I would also point out that if you are playing an evil or middle ground character and you are being questioned in such a manner, you are either unlucky or your you have failed at being sneaky, about being evil.
I would also point out that if you are playing an evil or middle ground character and you are being questioned in such a manner, you are either unlucky or your you have failed at being sneaky, about being evil.
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Onyksi Rin'oviryn
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Lam... I would say neither unlucky nor bad at "being sneaky." The real problem exists in that the skill is used to an excessive amount, about everything. Certain people on the field are basically "tagged" and are questioned on a regular basis about everything that happens, even when they had nothing to do with it. The usual suspects, if you will.
Trust me. You try playing a middle or evil character, and let me know how that works out for you.
Trust me. You try playing a middle or evil character, and let me know how that works out for you.
This character hasn’t even played a game yet and he’s been put to the question. Several times! But that’s life as an evil character. People are sure to think he’s up to no good.
Of course he is! He’s evil!
Evil brings out (a just) paranoia in others, prompting them to frequently check on your evilness.
“Are you trying to kill me?”
“No.” (Detect Lie – Not lying)
“How about now?”
“No.” (Detect Lie – Not lying)
“Now?”
“No.” (Detect Lie – Not lying)
“…”
“Aren’t you going to ask more questions?”
“Can’t – out of life points.”
“Good.” Draws sword. “NOW I’m trying to kill you!”
It’s not easy being bad in a town of rainbows and happy puppies. But the evil ones just have to deal until hell can be wrought on earth. Besides, it’s fun trying to make the questioner think he JUST MIGHT have caught you red handed had the question been worded slightly different.
Of course he is! He’s evil!
Evil brings out (a just) paranoia in others, prompting them to frequently check on your evilness.
“Are you trying to kill me?”
“No.” (Detect Lie – Not lying)
“How about now?”
“No.” (Detect Lie – Not lying)
“Now?”
“No.” (Detect Lie – Not lying)
“…”
“Aren’t you going to ask more questions?”
“Can’t – out of life points.”
“Good.” Draws sword. “NOW I’m trying to kill you!”
It’s not easy being bad in a town of rainbows and happy puppies. But the evil ones just have to deal until hell can be wrought on earth. Besides, it’s fun trying to make the questioner think he JUST MIGHT have caught you red handed had the question been worded slightly different.
Death is the threshold to immense possibility
What REALLLLLLLY bothers me as a GM is how you guys rely on Detect Lie as a crutch.
MY goodness it is a skill, but how do you know the person with the skill is telling the truth. You guys refuse to convict people you feel are evil because of one skill.
Now if I was playing my Dwarf I would have killed every dark elf or at least rounded them up and exiled them from town immeadeatly following the theft.
If I was playing Robert I would have pleaded with the Noble to exile every person who is believed to be sneaky.
I just, for the life of me, do not understand the crutch you guys have.
I would love to see the skill go away and I might even be in favor of Detect magic going away. You want to kill mages then you dont need a skill. I mean there was a time people burned people for witch craft and you know I am sure they got a few of them.
MY goodness it is a skill, but how do you know the person with the skill is telling the truth. You guys refuse to convict people you feel are evil because of one skill.
Now if I was playing my Dwarf I would have killed every dark elf or at least rounded them up and exiled them from town immeadeatly following the theft.
If I was playing Robert I would have pleaded with the Noble to exile every person who is believed to be sneaky.
I just, for the life of me, do not understand the crutch you guys have.
I would love to see the skill go away and I might even be in favor of Detect magic going away. You want to kill mages then you dont need a skill. I mean there was a time people burned people for witch craft and you know I am sure they got a few of them.
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
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Onyksi Rin'oviryn
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