Monks and Fists

[WayneO42]

5 second count:Allows less abuse, does allow people to fight(gimped obviously) and represents people being able to beat the crap out each other. This seems like a much better plan.

So you would be more in favor of something like:

Any character can swing 1 fist phys rep for 1 damage. All damage done to a character while weilding a fist phys-rep is considered crush damage. It takes a character an uninterupted 5 count to swing a fist phys rep.

[Peace420]

The mechanics vs roleplay is really just a difference of opinion. I'm of the opinion that the mechanics exist simply to resolve physical conflict and have very little to do with roleplaying and the "roleplay" mechanics are very few.

Yes people have died from being beaten by fists, but it's about as likely to happen as falling off a bar stool and dying. I'm speaking from experience here, not supposition. Spending alot of time as a youth and teenager in Detroit and being a bouncer in a bar has given me alot of actual experience with multiple people punching and kicking one person repeatedly.

The crush change does fix the fist and shield combo which would thoroughly unbalance the game. I still think having an undisarmable, machine gunnable, weapon unbalances things. If your fighting with a fist phys rep it's going to be a race to 0 anyway since you have to get so close. If fists are allowed to swing 1 I think the 5 count should most definitely be part of it, otherwise someone following the rules and swinging appropriately with a weapon WILL lose to the person machine gunning with a fist.

The thing I keep coming back to is that there is a way to do damage with your fists already in the game, it only costs 20 points and is open to anyone that is common. And everyone in the game does have a way to do 1 damage with any weapon other than a fist. There is no defiency in the rules, only a "want to do the adventurous dramatic, and probably suicidal, thing and have at with fists alone" (not my words).

[dier_cire]

To me the ability to machine gun with fists,(Hero/Rage) is only a tiny part of abuse that you might take. Now you can sneak up on a fully armed warrior from behind and beat the snarks out them with your fist.

Because an unarmed person could never beat an unaware person???

The intent, was to make an option in which everyday people could fight with fists, (in a non effient way.) to allow them to A) Defend themselves whent he chips are down. and B. Better represent the way people can kill each other with their bare hands. The current rage/hero solution does NOT accomplish this.

And of course the person who's never even seen a fight should be able to beat up a person with years of combat experience. It's all based on player skill, there is no mechanic for what the character has done with their life.

and I really don't see how a fist shield combo would unbalance the game... how many people use dagger shield?

[cole45]

5 second count:Allows less abuse, does allow people to fight(gimped obviously) and represents people being able to beat the crap out each other. This seems like a much better plan.

So you would be more in favor of something like:

Any character can swing 1 fist phys rep for 1 damage. All damage done to a character while weilding a fist phys-rep is considered crush damage. It takes a character an uninterupted 5 count to swing a fist phys rep.

Yes. Exactly that. It accomplishes the mechanic of fist-fighting with out riding on the monk's abilties at all. It allows the untrained to defend themselves badly, but still tipping the scales to the weaponed person. Anyone can do it, but it's not a great choice. Basically it provides all the mechanical benifits helpful to roleplaying a fist fight.

[dier_cire]

you do realize that adding a rule like this affects all of the knockout skills and touch of death...

for note, tod has wording in it that conflicts with a normal charged skill. It reads as if you can block while trying to hit the target. Is this intended or not?

[WayneO42]

you do realize that adding a rule like this affects all of the knockout skills and touch of death...

How? Please explain. If you mean it adds on to the knockout damage then that is incorrect. Knockout is a seperate type of damage with its own count.

for note, tod has wording in it that conflicts with a normal charged skill. It reads as if you can block while trying to hit the target. Is this intended or not?

Its just poor wording. It will be clarified

[Nelkie]

OK, I just want to make a couple points.

First, as stated by the NPC's, no rule changes will take effect until the new session, 2006 unless there is a serious game unbalancing rule issue. Using fist is not.

Second, will one take crush damage if they are using their waylay skill with a fist fisrep? Does this not hurt the rouge and sage??

Third, the charge time is crazy. Rember, a charge skill is lost if you get hit. So how does one think they can charge a fist for a 5 count and get close enogh to swing 1 damage with a 6" piece of foam in middle of a melee battle with out being hit? It is hard enough to do that with a 4 foot piece of foam. I see it almost impossible with a 6" piece of foam.

Fourth, whats wrong with spending 20 points to be able to swing 1 point of damage as a monk, or carry a few extra weapons around? Is disarm / shatter that powerful a skill a new rule needs to be made up to balance it out.

Fifth, if you want to go fist cuff with some one, roleplay it out. Make an agreement of what is counted and what is not, and have run with.

[Peace420]

Yeah Ried and Nelkie have a very good point, the way it's written it makes anyone wielding a fist take crush and have to do a 5-count.

[WayneO42]

First, as stated by the NPC's, no rule changes will take effect until the new session, 2006 unless there is a serious game unbalancing rule issue. Using fist is not.

100% correct. We may "grant" this ability to a few players to play test at an event but it will not be a global change until the new season.This is, however, a good time to be discussing it as to avoid a rushed discission

Second, will one take crush damage if they are using their waylay skill with a fist fisrep? Does this not hurt the rouge and sage??

The rules of the stunstrike skill will superceed these rules just as any rule in a skill superceeds a global rule (press as an example).

Third, the charge time is crazy. Rember, a charge skill is lost if you get hit. So how does one think they can charge a fist for a 5 count and get close enogh to swing 1 damage with a 6" piece of foam in middle of a melee battle with out being hit? It is hard enough to do that with a 4 foot piece of foam. I see it almost impossible with a 6" piece of foam.

5 seconds is an eternity. Its just not going to happen often in a combat against someone with a weapon. It may work if you are teamed up with a couple of other people in a 2 or 3 on one. It will also work as a nice mechanic if you are fighting someone else who only has a fist (Of course it will look like a fight between two students on the short yellow bus).

Fourth, whats wrong with spending 20 points to be able to swing 1 point of damage as a monk, or carry a few extra weapons around? Is disarm / shatter that powerful a skill a new rule needs to be made up to balance it out.

In my opinion it has more to do with than just shatter or disarm. There are several situations that may find a character without a weapon. Example: Just say one or seven people get taken hostage by dark elves (nah...that would never happen ) and have their weapons confiscated. If they manage to get out of their bonds, shouldnt they have a fighting chance to get the drop on the guards and escape? Right now, the ones who have a shot at it are rouges, monks, assasins, and valkin'vi. See a trend here? Notice no warrior on that list? That seem counter-intuitive to me.

Fifth, if you want to go fist cuff with some one, roleplay it out. Make an agreement of what is counted and what is not, and have run with.

I think this is a superb way to do "honor" fights, boxing matches, sparring or the like but it doesnt really work in an on-going combat because it would cause a game stop and all participants of the combat would have to be informed of the agreed upon rules.

[cole45]

OK, I just want to make a couple points.

First, as stated by the NPC's, no rule changes will take effect until the new session, 2006 unless there is a serious game unbalancing rule issue. Using fist is not.

Second, will one take crush damage if they are using their waylay skill with a fist fisrep? Does this not hurt the rouge and sage??

Third, the charge time is crazy. Rember, a charge skill is lost if you get hit. So how does one think they can charge a fist for a 5 count and get close enough to swing 1 damage with a 6" piece of foam in middle of a melee battle with out being hit? It is hard enough to do that with a 4 foot piece of foam. I see it almost impossible with a 6" piece of foam.

Fourth, whats wrong with spending 20 points to be able to swing 1 point of damage as a monk, or carry a few extra weapons around? Is disarm / shatter that powerful a skill a new rule needs to be made up to balance it out.

Fifth, if you want to go fist cuff with some one, roleplay it out. Make an agreement of what is counted and what is not, and have run with.

Sage: Could they even use waylay with a fist physrep? I see they can charge a one knock out. Anyway, I highly doubt that would count as fighting untrained.

Chargetime: Yes, that is in fact the POINT. You can not really defend yourself against an armed fighter. That was the GOAL. you can ATTEMPT to defend yourself. Two people in fist-fight(both un-trained) can however have an actual fist fight. (with some serious backpedaling going on.)

Buying the skill: There is nothing wrong with buying the skill if you actually want to be competitive with a fist. But this is to represent untrained beatdowns. People fighting each other. as it stand right now, everyone is invulnerable to regular beatdowns except from a monk. (barring roleplaying. see above issues.). This allows a mechanical representation of that beatdown action.

As far as making a rp agreement, there's a time when the rules can only help. If someone decided they were going to beat someone with in an inch of their life, there is no mechanical re-enforcement. The other person can decide(legitimately) that he has no fear of death and can do as he pleases. This system allows the Roleplayers the mechanical tools they need. A gaming system must help roleplaying, not be an Obstacle to overcome. Suspension of disbelief is important to immerse in a game, and every mechanical hindrance pulls at that.

[WayneO42]

Yeah Ried and Nelkie have a very good point, the way it's written it makes anyone wielding a fist take crush and have to do a 5-count.

Is this better?:

Any character can initiate "Unarmed Combat" with a fist phys rep by making an uninterupted 5 count. They may then swing their fist phys rep for 1 damage. An additional uninterupted 5 count is required between each swing. Any damage received while in unarmed combat is considered crush damage. To exit unarmed combat, the character is required to either leave the combat, draw a weapon, or make an additional uninterupted 5 count

[Peace420]

That wording works for me.

[Ug]

Alternative idea:


Any character can initiate "Unarmed Combat" with a fist phys rep or two fist phys reps by spending 1 point of life. They may then swing their fist phys rep(s) for 1 damage. An additional 1 point of life is required between each swing. Any damage received while in unarmed combat is considered crush damage.

[dier_cire]

Seems like a whole lot of words to appease something that is a pure roleplaying aspect.

Wow, just looked over a few more pages. The people without weapons had many skills they could use and warriors are invaluable with or without a weapon.

[Onimaster]

Is this better?:

Any character can initiate "Unarmed Combat" with a fist phys rep by making an uninterupted 5 count. They may then swing their fist phys rep for 1 damage. An additional uninterupted 5 count is required between each swing. Any damage received while in unarmed combat is considered crush damage. To exit unarmed combat, the character is required to either leave the combat, draw a weapon, or make an additional uninterupted 5 count

Perfect, that is exactly what I was going for when I started this thread. I fully support this wording/rule.