Bow use for everyone

[Curufin]

Hey all,

I have been thinking. The archer shouldn't be the only one who can use a bow or crossbow. (For the rest of this thread I will refer to the bow and crossbow as just a "bow")

Anyone in the game can pick up a sword and swing it around. Why can't anyone pick up a bow and fire an arrow? The archer discipline merely makes the archer more affective, much like the knight that makes a person with a sword more affective. Both damages are the same, 1, while the bow calls vorpal. But the added time and skill it takes to fire an arrow more than makes up for the vorpal call.

In fact, most common people would probably more adept to using a bow than a sword because of hunting. A person doesn't hunt deer with swords and clubs, they use ranged weapons. If a common person knows how to use a bow, anyone in game should. Even if a person doesn’t know how to use a bow effectively, they can still nock an arrow and draw a string, though they probably won't hit anything, which is exactly what would happen. If someone can't use a sword well, they won't use a sword well. It's the same thing.

Also, bows are very cheap in comparison to swords and other weapons (though not in game). Bows are pieces of wood that are carved not weapons that require hammer and anvil. Thus they would be more readily available.

Let me know what you think,
Ryan

[Bob-Z (kabre)]

word

[Valane]

I think Ryan makes a good point about the availability and general use of bows (not crossbows). They are a cheep and plentiful weapon that anyone could figure out how to operate but as he mentiones they are not likely to hit anything. So for game purposes I could possibly see the need to have some training as an archer to be effective.

Crossbows, however I think fit into a different niche. There is no doubt that someone trained would need to load a crossbow, however anyone who has a hand with more than two fingers could pick up a loaded crossbow, point it at something, and have a decent chance of hitting what they intended to hit.

This leads me to question the need for an archer skill to fire a crossbow. They should not recieve any bonuses as an archer does (larger damage numbers based on the assumption that someone highly trained would hit a more sensitive area) but they should be able to give it a go for the base damage of the weapon. There is no doubt however that a skill should be required to load the crossbow.

Just my thoughts on the matter and my opinions are of course open to abuse from all.

Steve

[Brikal Farside]

'The LARP is the thing...'

hmmm... this seems to be turning into an Order of the Phoenix thread....

However: just to be counted....

If any PC can get my crossbow from my cold, dead hands and use it any more effectively than I did, let 'em have it. It was a feat of willpower not to drop my Xbow and go straight melee. (see comment in other 'bow' thread) Anyone can figure out how to use a crossbow. Even in-game Grok figured out how to use Kabre's. (and liked it so well, she wanted to keep it ) Johnnydude off the street can put an arrow in a nock, draw it and let go. It takes an archer to aim it effectively and do more damage with it.

my two bucks,
spence

[Bob-Z (kabre)]

RE: Steve's "Crossbows, however I think fit into a different niche. There is no doubt that someone trained would need to load a crossbow".

I don’t even agree that a person needs to be trained to load a crossbow. If we're letting commoners use ranged weapons (which I fully agree we should), we're splitting hairs at that point. It doesn't really require any more intelligence or skill to pull back a string on a crossbow until it stops, and that's all that’s required to draw a crossbow (the orc even figured it out ). And we have to assume that every PC in this game has seen a crossbow fired many times, in battle, and would know exactly how to load and shoot one. NPC's as commoners and even most monsters are perfectly capable of doing the same.

And as Ryan said, "The archer discipline merely makes the archer more affective" (I think it’s effective ). So, in the event that a rule is passed that anyone can use a bow, perhaps a different point structure should be constructed to allow the actual "archers" to be more effective. Say johnny-PC or johnny-NPC that just picks up a bow in battle does the standard (1) damage, but there are bonuses for actual archers to damage, because they are going to be able to place their shots much more lethally.

[Curufin]

Last night I couldn't get to sleep because I was still thinking about the LARP and the whole bow thing (someone told me that LARPs are like crack, and I am beginning to agree).

Why is a bow call vorpal? Why doesn't armor help against missile fire? If you shoot an arrow at someone wearing nothing, the damage is taken off the persons LPs. Now, lets say that you shoot that same person while they are wearing full plate, the damage is still taken off the characters LPs. This doesn't make sense. A person wearing armor is less likely to take damage from an arrow than someone who is naked.

Kabre just gave me a proper segue: "So, in the event that a rule is passed that anyone can use a bow, perhaps a different point structure should be constructed to allow the actual "archers" to be more effective." Thanks Bob.

Most of these arguments are damage related. One side says they are not powerful enough and the other side says they are too powerful and need to be trimmed back. One side says they're not very effective in combat the other says given the right circumstances (in a tree or trench with a cache of loaded cross bows or behind a shield wall) they are.

This is where Kabre's idea of "a different point structure" comes in. Simply remove the vorpal call. All missile weapons do normal damage. Just slightly increase the base damage of the missile weapons.

For example:
Hand x-bow: 1 normal damage
light x-bow: 2 normal damage
bow: 2 normal damage
heavy x-bow: 3 normal damage

If a character maxes out the archer discipline, and can add the "true shot" before multiplying the "magic arrow" the max damage for a heavy x-bow is 15 magic damage for a 40 second count. An empath with the channel skill can throw for 10 magic in half the time. An elf with the lesser channel skill in a 40 second count can throw 4 spell packets each for 8 magic, for a total of 32 magic.

In the rules, a master archer is really only a PC killer. He is still not that useful against monsters (unless the "right circumstances" present themselves). And since there isn't that much PC killing, why would anyone take the archer?

I would like to see the archer a little more well-rounded.

Just my thoughts
Ryan

[Trevor Owen]

Alright, on the vorpal, I can speak to this one since I went to an archery demonstration the last time I was at Carnovan Castle in Wales. Arrow heads in the middle ages were designed with a chisel shape and fracture points, not the broad heads you see today for combat against armor (they actually used many different arrow heads for different purposes) but against armor, the chisel head is designed to fracture in such a way as to drive perpendicular to the surface of the metal, thus punching a hole clean through a plate up to a quarter inch thick (I saw it done...scary stuff) Thus your armor doesn't protect you from arrows used by trained archers. Now some hunter, with no special arrows, isn't going to punch through armor unless, like the swashbuckler who swings vorpal, he learns to look for the weakspots and target them, eyes, neck etc. A good archer could do that, especially at close range, however we don't want to duplicate shooting at people's eyes and necks for game purposes.

-Thanks,

Trevor

[Brikal Farside]

my thoughts for redoing the bow point structure:

1. do away with vorpal bow damage. as ryan said, vorpal damage is essentially for pc killing. This in and of itself reduces the deadliness of the bow.

2. Raise the base damage back to 3 for an archer using the bow (any bow, cross or not). Because the damage is normal, this is still not that deadly, but is more effective in field combat.

3. let anyone be able to use a bow for 1 damage.

These three changes alone make the archer a much more well rounded discipline and the bow a much more useful (and hopefully common) weapon.

this makes the following damage readout:

Any non-archer using any bow:
1 normal

Any archer using any bow without taking a special skill count:
3 normal

Any archer using any bow with the magic arrow skill (30 sec.):
9 magic (3base*3magic)

Any archer using any bow with the true shot skill (max 10 sec.)
5 normal (3base+2)

Archer using any bow with magic arrow and true shot (40 sec.):
11 magic (3base*3magic+2)

If a GM could comment on this, it'd be cool.

spence

[WayneO42]

We went down the "Bows do normal damage" route about 10 years ago when designing CARPS. After many years of playtesting and RL research it was found to be more believable and playable to use vorpal damage. The big argument against vorpal damage seems to be that it is uneffective against NPC monsters. That is not the fault of vorpal damage, its the fault of our creature design. We as GMs need to rework the monster book abit and go heavier on armour than LP.

As far as anyone using a bow, it will be in the next rewrite. Anyone can use any weapon (Crossbows and Bows included) for 1 damage. This signifies that they do not have the skill to hit weak and unarmoured points nor do they have the skill to use the specialized points that archers can. Is this realistic? Not really. Is it Believable and Playable? YES.

For Reference, Here is the new wording of the Archer discipline and the section in the book about bows and crossbows. This is not finalized. It is just a working draft but I dont suspect it will be different in the final version:

(New)Archer – privileged, common, savage

The archer becomes one with the tool of his trade. It is not just a weapon but a companion carefully cared for and jealously guarded. With it the archer is deadly, to be feared even by the most heavily armored knight, for his shafts are undeterred by simple steel.

All abilities are restricted to medium armor .
Level 1: Use Bow
You can use any kind of bow or crossbow. The damage you call for a bow is one vorpal. All Crossbows deal two vorpalexcept Light crossbows which deal 1 vorpal. A light crossbow s defined as any crossbow that can be fired one-handed .

Level 2: Create Arrows
You can always make and repair arrows. It takes you no time to create arrows and you are always considered to have them as long as you have phys-reps. You may not call a game stop or hinder play in any way to retrieve arrows.

Level 3: True Shot
With true shot you can hold off shooting your bow to do more damage. Every 5 count increases the damage by 1 with a maximum increase of 2 (a 10 count).

Level 4: Magic arrow
This skill takes 30 seconds to charge but multiplies your damage by three and is magical. Call ‘# magic vorpal’ when using this skill.


(new)Bows and Crossbows

In the hands of an archer, a bow and light crossbow deal a base damage of one vorpal and all other crossbows deal a base damage of two vorpal. A light crossbow is defined as any crossbow that can be fired one-handed. In the hands of a character without the archer discipline, both bows and crossbows deal 1 damage (not vorpal). Any bow used in Final Haven must be rated at twenty-five pounds or less. Any crossbow used must be rated at 600 in/lbs or less and the draw weight cannot exceed 50 pounds. To obtain the in/lb rating of a crossbow, multiply the draw weight times the draw length. Example: A crossbow with a draw weight of 50# and a draw length of 12 inches has a in/lb rating of 600 (50 x 12). The arrows and bolts used cannot be real, of course. A guide to making FH safe arrows and bolts is on page 59.

[dier_cire]

Just for reference there have been times where the archer has come in very handy. Anyone remember the effectiveness of Colin in the battle with the giant bugs?

Also, not doing damage with bows, well think about it in normal everyday life. Someone draws a bow on you versus someone charging you with a broad sword. The bow may hurt you, may kill you, or may miss by the time you reach him/her, with the likeliest being a wound. The sword is probably going to kill you unless you run since he can keep swinging while the bow would reload. Now if the guy is a good archer and is ready for you, you probably will die. Remember, you walked into a game as basically peasants that decided to become adventurers, not seasoned vetern combatants. Now next event if you have 4 guys with bows shooting 15 vorpal a piece, if you have warriors running interference you will be killing things.

For a comaprison, look at the backstab. 3 damage at beginner sucks, but you get 12 at master and you've got something. Ultimately, this game is not based on power in any one path/discipline but rather combining those into a powerful group.

[WayneO42]

Well Said Reid. FH is about group dynamics. Its not a LARP where anyone can be a one man army. Also, you can be effective your first event but, as Reid said, you are little more than a farmer with delusions of granduer or you may have been an adventurer before the cataclysm but are just now recovering from the massive trauma. It takes an event to get in the groove.

[Bob-Z (kabre)]

Howdy:

First off, I just wanted to thanks Wayne for all your help, listening, and clarification of these archery rules for us.

Secondly, I didn't want to paint the impression that any of the Phoenix members were power gamers, by any stretch of the term. We're all about group dynamics, problem solving, and tactics to get the job done -- not administering mad amounts of poison, vorpal, double-kill, @#$% damage. We are very aware that as low-level characters, we weren't going to be doing a great deal of damage, but were concerned that if we were to advance in archery, we were going to be investing in a dead-end discipline -- this concern was largely due to the fact that what we were hearing ranged weapons did, and what the rules had to say didn't jive.

Next, thanks again to everyone for their input. I think this next event will benefit greatly from the changes. I really like the fact that anyone can pick up a bow and use it now. I think weapon/ability variety on the battlefield is directly proportional to, and factorially increases, the enjoyment and possibilities of outcome.

Couple final clarification questions from me, before I shut up:

1. Just wanted to know if the "count" has been eliminated for crossbows. We've established that the phys-reps take care of time delay for a crossbow's readiness, so have we done away with the 5/15 second wait time?

2. Wondering about multipliers and movement. If i'm not mistaken, the concept behind the third-level true-shot is that you take a few seconds to steady yourself before the shot. Then at fourth level, you are granted you magic arrow. So which of these scenarios is true?

Assume a heavy crossbow with a base damage of 2 vorpal for all of the following.

Scenario 1: 4th level archer can walk around with a 12 magic vorpal bolt ready (as a result of waiting 30 seconds for magic, and 10 for true-shot, giving 12 from (2base+2true-shot) * 3magic )

OR

Scenario 2: 4th level archer can walk around with a 6 magic vorpal bolt ready (as a result of waiting for 30 seconds for magic (2base *3magic), but CANNOT use true-shot until a target has been acquired and a 10 second count has been initiated to represent the "steady" time.) In this situation the archer can opt to shoot for 6 magic vorpal right away, or wait up to 10 seconds to deal 12 magic vorpal.

OR

Scenario 3: Same as scenario 2, but the damage is maxed out at 8 (because you've charged 30 seconds for a multiplier of 3magic, giving 6, and then the true-shot adds 2 more on top of that for a total of 8. Just basically wondering how the concept of magic worked in this situation. It seems like magic would have the capability of multiplying AFTER your total damage plus any other modifiers were tabulated because, well, it’s magic.

OR

Scenario 4: I'm completely off my rocker and I don't get to deal any damage, because im retarded.


Thanks!

Bob-Z

[dier_cire]

I kinda like scenario 2 and the only change to the current rules would be to say after charging true shot you cannot move. Just because walking around with 12 is just too tampting for any pc killer to become an archer with a hand crossbow.

Another question: Holding two hand crossbows, do you need swashbuckler to do this? And it is assumed that you could not not charge both even if you could hold two. If you could I'm becoming a crossbow slinger.

[Peace420]

I don't think any of those currently work I believe that you have to have a target to charge on much like backstab and ToD and most every other charge skill save empath.

You guys will find yourselves much more effective against other NPC's, the monsters last event were all high hp monsters and the NPC non monsters were all legendary bad guys from CARPS except for possibly the evil druid. Florin and his creations are still talked about at CARPS even though he's been dead for some time and The Master (Joseph) is over a thousand year old necromancer. When you raise your archer levels and get to do more damage you'll see a big difference. It would also probably be a good idea to befriend one or more of the many alchemist's in town.

[Nelkie]

The way the rules ar writen up senerio 1 is correct. I do not see any problem with that because the empath can walk around with a 15 magic all ready.
But the archer must have the arrow nocked and bow out ready to shoot. The archer can do nothing expect walk, talk.
And it has been talked about if a person is holding a charged skill and they get hit they loose the charge.

So if you see a person will bow with a nocked arrow start throwing rocks at them.