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0 vs. 0 is self explanatory, KO has to beat your armor protection number so a 0 KO (0 poison, 0 disease) will NEVER EVER do anything.

Actually, in the 08 version of the rulebook, on page 27 it states:

Basic Knockout
With this skill, the Rogue is able to render a target unconscious. To perform a knockout the Rogue must strike a target in any legal target area with a tiny weapon or a fist phys-rep and call the # and knockout. Thus, at this level the call is “3 Knockout.” If the characters involved are not in an active combat situation, Rogues may lightly touch their target with the pommel of a weapon to perform the knockout. If the target has three points of armor or less at the time of the knockout, the target falls unconscious for five minutes. See Knockout on page 82 for more information. This skill takes an uninterrupted 10 count to charge.

I always thought the number had to exceed your armor 'value' to take effect, but apparently not.

Malachi wrote:

0 vs. 0 is self explanatory, KO has to beat your armor protection number so a 0 KO (0 poison, 0 disease) will NEVER EVER do anything.

Actually, in the 08 version of the rulebook, on page 27 it states:

Basic Knockout
With this skill, the Rogue is able to render a target unconscious. To perform a knockout the Rogue must strike a target in any legal target area with a tiny weapon or a fist phys-rep and call the # and knockout. Thus, at this level the call is “3 Knockout.” If the characters involved are not in an active combat situation, Rogues may lightly touch their target with the pommel of a weapon to perform the knockout. If the target has three points of armor or less at the time of the knockout, the target falls unconscious for five minutes. See Knockout on page 82 for more information. This skill takes an uninterrupted 10 count to charge.

I always thought the number had to exceed your armor 'value' to take effect, but apparently not.

Exactly, thats why I said it would have to be looked at.

And damage mitigation is handled CR, AP, LP, that way a warrior (or anyone else with CR) doesnt have to have his armor repaired the second he gets tapped on the shoulder. It comes off of CR first.

We can argue semantics all day on '3 vorpal poison ko' put the fact is if its vorpal it bypasses armor and delivers the effect(s), and if KO is in the call it HAS to be treated as non damaging. Thats the inherent flaw in the #KO system. By all mean, if you can think of a dynamic way to replace it then speak up.

Luckily knockout is the only skill with a number that doesn't do damage. That really makes it not so bad.

Woden wrote:Thats the inherent flaw in the #KO system. By all mean, if you can think of a dynamic way to replace it then speak up.

See my first post in this thred.

I did, and though it keeps the dynamic it did total out around 13, which if that converts to damage creates a 'killing blow' against most archetypes.
Its not a bad answer, I just dont think its one Id get behind.

i sugested making it a skill like touch of death

a 15 count to add "knockout" to your next melee attack, that way it is damage, but it still has to get to your life, it can still be paried, resisted, blocked with high amounts of armor unless its vorpal, so on

The number should have come at the end to differentiate it, so instead of 3 ko it would be ko 3. Then you can have 3 vorpal poison ko 3...

couldn't be simpler

13 may be a "killing blow" but it would have a much longer count than any other killing blow. I do sort of like Ark's idea of having KO be an add on but alot of paths disciplins would need to be looked over and what would be the effect of having KO from multiple sorces?

Murgadin wrote: I do sort of like Ark's idea of having KO be an add on but alot of paths disciplins would need to be looked over

not really, as it is the same as touch of death, everything was already balanced out because of that skill, so having another skill like it woulndt be bad.

i do see whay you mean though, as there are ALOT of ways to get knockout, and with this idea having no bonus for multiple knockout stacking....?

so maybe mikes is the way to go, though i think if people still hear a number there going to think its damage, i recall being hit with 30 crush knockout and think i was paste, then thought about it and was like "oh wait im just asleep!"

The problem with a call of 3 vorpal poison ko 3 would be most people would hear that and think they take 3 vorpal poison knockout and then 3 damage. A number in a call makes people think it's the begining of a new call, if you change that then what would players use to determine the begining of a new call. Now imagine you have multiple people attacking you and you have to keep track.

The idea isn't horrible, you could combine the add on idea and this one so anytime you swing knockout it would be two calls. So the above examaple would become 1 vorpal poison 3 vorpal knockout. I personally think that's a little cumbersum and there's probably a better way, not to mention KO would still need some balancing between paths and disciplines.

i was looking some over and the only ones i see a problem with IMO are the ones that do vorpal

3rd level pikeman
3rd level samurai
4th level swashbuckler

because you could add a knockout into that, im not sure about swash though, as its a life point to activate and i dont know if you can use charged skills while swinging vorpal

but like i said, there would be no benefit to having it multiple times, unless it took a 30 sec charge time, and every level dropped it 5 sec.

okay im not discusing rules any more, just want to say, build a character around Role playng, not rules

I agree with you completely about making a char for role play and not for the rules Ark but without solid rules it can take away from the roleplaying. If people have to stop to ask how something works it's not only an inconvenience but it breaks the scene. That's why discussing rules between events is important so hopefully you can get issues ironed out before the next game on. Which reminds me, an official Kandium ruling would be nice since I know it was in debate even by the staff.

Ovak Stonecrusher wrote:The number should have come at the end to differentiate it, so instead of 3 ko it would be ko 3. Then you can have 3 vorpal poison ko 3...

couldn't be simpler

yeap, can't disagree with that at all. It's simple, it makes it easy to add KO to a damage call if needed and gets rid of confusion about whether or not something affects you.

KO should have to beat the number, that just makes it simple and doesn't give you a 0 vs. 0 scenario, especially since there could be a very easy way to to reduce it to 0 with a magic item and a hidden discipline.

I REALLY think you guys should change the way that damage is mitigated or there will be more and more problems in the future, Kandium is just the first to rear it's ugly head. Worrying about whether or not someone with CR has to fix their armor is frankly rather silly. Everyone else has to either fix their armor or get healed when they've taken 1, does the warrior really need to have a triple advantage?

There are some plans of that nature in the works for the off season.