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Knockout is very clear in that you are knocked out at equal to or less than the number called. You only beat a knockout if you exceed the number called.

From the 9 page monstrocity..

Murgadin wrote:What exactly happens if someone parry's a 3 vorpal knockout?

Parry states:

A Warrior may spend a life point to reduce the damage delivered from any single frontal melee attack that has a number in the call to 0. This includes knockout, crush, vorpal, poison, etc. In addition, they may also parry disarm attacks.

Knockout states:

When you are hit with a knockout your current armor including combat reflexes and enhancements needs to be greater than the number called to resist being knocked unconscious for 5 minutes. If your character’s current armor total is equal to or less than the number called then the character is knocked out. This call is delivered by a number followed by the word "knockout".

So if you parry a 3 vorpal knockout it becomes a 0 vorpal knockout, since it's vorpal you don't count your armor, so for all the purpose of the call you have 0 armor. 0 armor is not enough to stop 0 knockout.

So something needs rewording. As Haku said, I can Parry Vorpal, and I can Parry KO, but I CANT Parry Vorpal KO? Couple that with the ruling(?) of 'Resist a portion of the call, resist all of the call', and what you have is a real mess. It makes KO an exception amongst exceptions.
Simply making it that the # KO must exceed the total armor would eliviate the <>Zero problem, as well as solve the Vorpal/KO/Parry issue.
Only the Samurai issue remains, which I think needs looking at regardless of any changes to KO.

Why did we change it from sleep?

Oh my Gosh

Let me explain the intention of the skill and please dont get wrapped up int he wording.

Resist sleep meant to resist sleep.
Pary meant to resist damage.

This is extreamly clear. You don't like getting knocked out then parry is not the skill to take but resist sleep.

Vorpal knockout was added to assassin I believe to reduce calls and we thought the additive vorpal verbage would not be debated since it does the same thing. The problem is you are percieving the vorpal knockout as a physical attak that you just blocked instead of understanding that the vorpal knockout is a super natural magical assassin black arts voodoo you f'n knocked out skill. That was its intention. SOOOOOO I hearby change the assassin call to "vorap knockout you are f;n knocked out unless you have resist sleep because i have a super cool voodoo" j/k

Does this clear up what is going on?

Another option is to allow the assassin to simply call vorpal knokout. This way parry cannot be used as there is no number OR we can add to parry that you cannot parry knockout.

Maybe we should change how knockout works entirely since when I hear 3 knockout I dont take 3 points of damage I use the 3 as a test against my current armor. Maybe it should be knockout 1 (works on no armor), knockout 2 (light armor), knockout 3 (medium armor) and your f'n knocked out unless you have resist sleep.


I guess what I am saying is that there is no debate that parry will ever allow you to resist vorpal knockout so there is no need to argue the verbage simply suggest which verbage you would like to see to make it clear and we will add it to the book.

Woden wrote: I see the problem as two fold.
1) As mentioned in the other debate, 'the function of greater or less then zero when factoring knock out'. When totalling KO do you have to equal? or exceed? the total number of armor when taking KO.
2) Samurai is a broken discipline.

Solution;
*Reword KO to avoid the <>Zero debate.
*Remove super-parry from Samurai.

sounds fan-fricken-tastic

Chris then just change it back to sleep, you tried to avoid confusion and add variety, thats an oximoron.

because people wont know what vorpal knockout does, the armor knockout thing, or if parry works on it, and will break scene for clarification, but if its "sleep", then you know the only thing that can stop it is "resist sleep"

also maybe parry should just be a "resist damage"

resist damage
a warrior can spend a life point to resist any frontal melee attack with a number in it, as well as disarm.

then we avoid the whole 0 thing

GM_Chris wrote:Another option is to allow the assassin to simply call vorpal knokout. This way parry cannot be used as there is no number OR we can add to parry that you cannot parry knockout.

Just knockout would be enough since a call with no number surges.

GM_Chris wrote:Maybe we should change how knockout works entirely...

YES! It's an exception skill, which makes it confusing. I still have to correct people, some that have played long enough to know better, and tell them that knockout doesn't do damage.

GM_Chris wrote:...since when I hear 3 knockout I dont take 3 points of damage I use the 3 as a test against my current armor. Maybe it should be knockout 1 (works on no armor), knockout 2 (light armor), knockout 3 (medium armor) and your f'n knocked out unless you have resist sleep.

I almost like that idea but then it still has a number that isn't doing damage in the call and putting the number after the call could be confusing as I pointed out in the 9 page monster.

GM_Chris wrote:I guess what I am saying is that there is no debate that parry will ever allow you to resist vorpal knockout so there is no need to argue the verbage simply suggest which verbage you would like to see to make it clear and we will add it to the book.

I'd say just put it back to sleep if the intent was for it to only be resistible by resist sleep. Why was it changed anyway?

Ark wrote: resist damage
a warrior can spend a life point to resist any frontal melee attack with a number in it, as well as disarm.

then we avoid the whole 0 thing

You don't even have to rename it, that's very similar to the idea I posted. I'm guessing this whole thing will be looked at during the off season. Until then the way it is works fine as long as everyone knows how it's supposed to function.

except parry specifically says it works against knockout. That's why there was confusion.

I have no problem with Chris or Todd's suggestions. But the 4th level assasin skill should only allow to KO a person, period, nothing more.

If it can KO a person and do other things like it can right now, than there needs to be more ways to resist the Vorpal KO to keep things balanced.

That is all I'm saying.

ANd I like the idea of putting the KO number after the call. 1 (damage) Knock Out 4 is a good way to eliminate some of the confusion!!!

you want to eliminate confusion by adding a second number to the call?

not a good idea.

I could get behind calling the number afterwards, Knockout 9, but that would be it.

I like the number after knockout idea. It's probably the easiest change and while it's not perfect it does help differentiate between damage and KO. And if you really felt like it you could make it work in other ways to establish a check against armor such as Shatter calls. That's really the only other one I can think of that has a number but doesn't do damage.

Holy crap... you people really scare me...

I personally dont like the number after the call.

We have the super brain trust here is it possible that we could come up with a challenge response skill that is different than what other larps are doing?

Moving the number to the end of the call doesn't really solve anything. The call still has a number, thus no change in the whole parry thing. It's not doing any damage so it's still an exception compared to other calls, even more so now because the number comes after the call. It might help by letting people know ahead of time that the number isn't damage but really the issue comes down to people not knowing how the call is supposed to work. I still would like to see something more like this.

Murgadin wrote:I'd like to see knockout work more like poison and disease, where it needs to affect your LP but still does damage, hitting someone in the head with a heavy object still hurts even if it doesn't knock them out. With this idea you can lower the numbers and standardize the count times. Change the Valkyn’Vi boon to 1. Rogue gets 1 at basic, 2 more at advanced and another 3 at master, for a total of 6 KO. Sages stay at 1 at advanced and sage buff is changed to 1. Doubling up on Iron Fists(second level of brawler and monk) gives 1 knockout and Knockout Blow(fourth level of Brawler) gives 3. I'd say keep saps at 2, since they require a commodity to upkeep. Just like the current system you can stack all of these.

Then base the count time off of the size of the knockout call. I like 5 seconds, plus five seconds per point of knockout. So an 11 knockout would take 60 seconds to charge. Sure, you could get a decent sized damage call if you built yourself the right way but you would be heavily invested in that build to get your KO up and the size of the call wouldn't really be that huge compared to the time it takes to charge it.

This doesnt solve assassin as the assassin skill is actually suppose to circmvent skills like pary.

Ok, for the change to Assassin.. They were given Vorpal, I assume to allow them some versatility.. they can do Vorpal KO, or just plain vorpal. Now Assassin alone cannot do Vorpal KO, it is a combo discipline.

I would say to this whole thing, we can debate until the world ends, but there are logical reasons why Parry would and would not work. in the end I say we put it to the people who created this game and ask them..

Do you think Parry should stop a Vorpal KO?

If so, make a field call or Update for the remainder of the year re-wording Parry so that it stops all frontal melee attacks.

If not, then keep the skills as they are.

As for Parry working against KO, it still does that job.. ask Ark.. if someone hits you with a 26KO, you can and will still want to be able to Parry that.

Personally I am ok with either way we go.. as for how long a debate this is, well we are all smart opinionated people who want to try and make this game then best it can be.

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