A few questions

GM-Phil · Post by **GM-Phil** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:25 pm

First off, i don't care how many nifty items someone has, unless things have really gotten out of hand if enough people got sick of someone with a bunch of items.. then he is going down.

two, of the four options you have for getting around limiting factors of cost.. only one of those is cheating.. the other three are viable and quite intelligent options.. also I have been told that the Gm's have a fair idea of resources in and out of game.

Also for Paladins.. they do not get an actual immunity or resist.. what they get as far as i know as their 4th level ability is the capability of "awakening" themselves after being Slept or Ko'ed. That is why it is a Healer specific Discipline.

As for the game having too many items, i am in complete agreement.. as for Magic items well you have to consider that this game has been running for what 9 years now, plus 4 or so for Winterhaven.. and as I pointed out earlier Role-playing and items are the only real differentiating factors between many player builds.. so you have to expect a certain amount of Magic items in the game. The problem is that many of these items are allowed by the players to get funneled to only a few people which then makes them appear far more powerful than they actually are (the items mostly, and the character as well).. but as I said earlier if enough people decide it is time for that person to not have them, then he wouldn't.

I know at least that the Gm's have been re-doing costs and the like for Magic items and Exotic items to make them more balanced it seems. The Crafted exotic items are my only real concern.. but then again I have issues with Alchemy, Arcane and Craftsman anyway.. but it is too late in the game for any fixes I would like to see to them.. the best that can be done in my opinion is to limit what they can make and make sure the costs are balanced.

Post by **GM-Mike** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:37 pm

Paladins get a resist to sleep effects for 1 lp. If they have the awaken skill, they can spend 2 lp to awaken themselves

CharlesK · Post by **CharlesK** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:46 pm

I actually had Mike send me the up-to-date game rules for Paladin. Their fourth level ability, called 'Call of the Battle' can be used to spend a life point to resist any sleep effect, or 2 life points to either awaken myself (given the Paladin has awaken, which I do, of course) or make another person resist any sleep effect. The question I do still have though is this: Is knockout considered a sleep effect that could be resisted by call of the battle?

Woden · Post by **Woden** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:33 pm

Aidan_Mcpryde wrote:"...Alchemy, Arcane and Craftsman ... but it is too late in the game for any fixes I would like to see to them.. the best that can be done in my opinion is to limit what they can make and make sure the costs are balanced."

Yeah, these got away from me years ago. With multiple GMs and multiple GM visions I doubt they'll ever make it back to where I wanted them.

CharlesK wrote:Is knockout considered a sleep effect that could be resisted by call of the battle?

Unless something has changed that I am unaware of, yes.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:50 pm

i have no problem with disciplines, there usually balanced by there skills as they should be, balanceing by cost is great if your rich, the only problem i have is hidden disciplines being hidden, we would like to play them too

Woden · Post by **Woden** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:19 pm

Ark wrote:i have no problem with disciplines, there usually balanced by there skills as they should be, balanceing by cost is great if your rich, the only problem i have is hidden disciplines being hidden, we would like to play them too

Then make some effort to find them.
All 'hidden' means is that we didnt print it in the book. It was done that way intentionally because of the few we have, they require a role-playing effort. We dont want someone to sit down and look at the disciplines and say "I wanna play a Chaos Lord, Celesteen cause they have the best skill set!" (those two names are made up for the example) If someone heard about the Chaos Lords and made a RPing effort to become one then the 'hidden discipline' would be made available to them. There is no path/discipline IG that is not available to 100% of the player base AS LONG as the PC makes the effort to persue more elusive disciplines that may not appear in the book.

Hope that makes sense.

CharlesK · Post by **CharlesK** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:15 am

Unlike disciplines found in the rulebook, hidden disciplines must be learned in-game. I don't know how many hidden disciplines there are or what they are, except Paladin of course, which I actually didn't know about until I talked to Orien in the dreaming. It makes sense that Paladin would be a hidden discipline, since there is a strict code to follow; not just anyone could be a Paladin. With disciplines that anyone can play, the character could be good or evil; for example, one player could be an arcanist who uses their abilities for the greater good, while another arcanist could use there abilities for the ultimate evil. I only know of two hidden disciplines: Paladin, which requires an ultimately good character, and Samurai, which I don't know any of the rules for, but I would think there is a strict code of honor for a Samurai to follow. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that hidden disciplines add a very enjoyable element to the game and I like that there are skills that can only be taught by other players. It adds a whole new kind of player interaction that I feel is very important to the game.

cole45 · Post by **cole45** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:28 am

You don't have to learn hem just from a PC. Maybe you want to find and help group of NPCs, you go on a quest, and they show you. Again the idea is that the role play required would be totally in game.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:03 pm

okay that makes sense i guess, i could see how you wouldnt want everybody to have them, and now im moving the topic in another direction, assassin.

its horrible, its skills are way underpowered and become underbalanced with the influx of new skills and items.

disguise - people usually know its you, rarly usefull

escape artist - could go a whole year without useing the skill

utilize poison - never works on monsters it would even be worth useing it on, i dont think this is a 3rd level skill, 2nd at best.

touch of death - barely makes up for the discipline, getting easy to counter as time goes on.

any resist sleep skills - actually dont have a problem, disciplines can counter other disciplines, thats how it works (man at arms, paladin of light)
back parry - really dont like the skill in the first place, i think its too good
potions and there ilk - my opinions on potions and spells are well known
armor and items - just shananagins now.

IMO i think touch of death needs to be changed back to sleep, so it can get through some of the above blocks, suck as back parry and items.

or pass wall should be put back in the discipline, its just really underpowered right now

Zeira · Post by **Zeira** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:48 pm

The power of Touch of death lies in it's versatility. You can either knock someone out or do damage. combined with the 3rd level utilize poison (Which allows you to constantly swing for poison) is an awesome set up. Making poison second level would be too awesome. I can see knights everywhere callin 3 poison constantly.

If you don't want people to know your using disguise get a real disguise while using the skill.

Escape artist sucks until you are tied up and you don't have it.

Theres probably no better feeling then quitely escaping inescapable bonds and vorpal poisob knocking out the guy guarding you and then disguising yourself so you can get out.

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:44 pm

1st a knight swinging 3 poison would be a VERY high level. as you would be master path, master discipline, 3rd level discipline, i know the original idea was to give ToD more variety, but i think it weakend it

2nd people will meta game know your useing disguise, if you know someone is an assassin, and they come up to you as the new guy in town, you can be fairly certain its them, this has happened in the past.

3rd in more than two years of playing atending almost every event i have never been tied up, and ususally if you are its just normal bonds.

your escape scenario is good but flawed by many of the problems i have listed, and you could be screwed by:

-resist sleep - im okay with
-back parry - whatever
-no effect - shananagins (kandium armor or potion)
-resist poison - never add poison to a call you want to succeed.

the problem is assassins count on the "one hit kill" idea, even if the first attack misses or gets countered there screwed, i miss being afraid of assassins, now empaths are more sneaky and deadly

General Maximus · Post by **General Maximus** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:40 am

Actualy assain can be scary. It's just on your build. An empath assasin is force to feared with some hero points!!

I personaly would never take assasin becasue it takes to much time to use the skills and you are right, posion is a PC killer skill only. Rarely it works on NPC's. But you take assasin becasue you are typicaly a PC killer. If you are NPC killer, there are far better disaplines to take!

cole45 · Post by **cole45** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:32 am

passwall was removed to the unnecessary ooc scene it caused.

poison was moved UP from 2nd to 3rd because of super lethal combos.

Disguise is actually AWESOME against NPCs. As sen, I used it to super lethality sneaking into the plot and sneaking out. Hell we used it to kill 250 soldiers.

The vorpal is SO MUCH BETTER than sleep. sleep never ever works on undead,constrcuts or what ever. but a vorpal attack is always good. It opens the path to vorpal poison, which is amazing.

Assassin doesn't have to be a pc killer, just stop using it on undead. the general of an army is always a good target.

Post by **GM_Chris** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:22 pm

Yeah, these got away from me years ago. With multiple GMs and multiple GM visions I doubt they'll ever make it back to where I wanted them

LOL you know I strangely feel the exact same way you do.

I have been reading this thread and it reminds me how important journaling is because my memory of 9 years ago is SOOOOO much different than other people's its scary. The thing is I am not saying my memory is correct, I am sure it is wrong in several areas, but I am also pretty sure I am right on some too.

Here are a couple examples
1) At one time we were going to have a rule that no more than 2 special effects could be chained together. This was to stop the 3 vorpal poison knockout as it would not exist. I looked in the book and the rule is not in there, and I wonder if it ever was. I know I advocated for it, but must have just thought it made it in.
2) Immunities. Resisting or being immune to a part of the call ALWAYS made you immune to the entire call. Yeah I know it is stupid, but it is not new, it has always been that way, and apparently other GMs's remember it that way too so I think I am right on this. I agree it is stupid, but it is also easy.
3) 3 vorpal poison knockout. After reading the assassin rules and some other rules the interpretation as I see it is:
a) immunity to any of the special calls---then ignore the entire call
b) if you made vorpal normal damage---call is 3 posion knockout and would have to get through armor.

Atrum Draconus · Post by **Atrum Draconus** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:19 pm

I think I'm the only person in the entire game that has been an assassin since the very first event. Assassin has changed more than any other discipline out there, some of it good, some of it not, some of it was decent before the proliferation of magic items that are far more powerful than they were ever intended to be. Assassin has been a 1 trick pony for a LONG time now. Sleep took too long and all you ever had to do was touch the assassin or walk away and it was ruined. Same with all of the assassin's skills now. Vorpal is a bit more versatile than sleep, now more people can frustrate you! Disguise is the ONLY skill in the game that forces you to NPC and you are OOG for an hour before you even do that. I understand why, to limit metagaming, but it still sucks to have to give up playing your character to use a skill. And spot foils disgiuse or at least has in the past. That's part of my problem with assassin, most of it's foils are either free to people or a lower level than the assassin's skill.

Disgiuse should be any humanoid race, that would make it decent as opposed to sucky like it is. Escape artist is one of the least useful skills in the game, it only counters inescapable bonds, which THIS one is higher than what it foils. Utilize poison needs to stay 3rd level because 2nd level skills are pretty much anyone can get them skills, your third or fourth discipline you can get 2nd level in a few events. BUT the assassin SHOULD be able to use poison potions on other weapons for other people to use. That would balance it against immunities and having to reach life for it to work. TOD should either become a passive skill after it is charged or remove the armor limitation. Sleep was FAR more powerful than appending vorpal on to a call IMO, and it took less time than 9vorpal KO, which you need to charge because people use Kandium armor without having a heavy phys rep so you never know who might have it.