3 vorpal poison knockout vs Parry

Post by **GM-Mike** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 1:01 pm

I didn't realize they couldn't use shields. That's not in the description that I have seen. The main issue is that it gives the best warrior skill out as a discipline in my opinion. If I wanted to build a kickin warrior, I would go only to advanced and buy samurai and then have an extra ninety points to do with as I wished (at least that's what my power games tell me).

If the intention is for them to not use shields, then the people with that discipline need to stop using shields...

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 1:51 pm

^AGREE

Altearez · Post by **Altearez** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:57 pm

all quotes from From the rule book

first quote from rouge skill

"With this skill, the Rogue is able to render a target unconscious. To perform a knockout the
Rogue must strike a target in any legal target area
with a tiny weapon or a fist phys-rep and call the
# and knockout."

this sounds like a melee attack to me

second quote from lv.4 assassin

"The assassin may append the damage call "vorpal" to their next melee attack that contains
a number."

1.You can't change "#vorpal knockout" to "(no number) Vorpal knockout" Because it is clearly written that there has to be a number on it.

2.It also clearly states that "the assassin may append the damage call "vorpal" to their next melee attack"
Notice emphases on the word MELEE!!! This still sounds like a melee attack to me.

Third quote from a MASTER WARRIOR SKILL

"Parry/Avoid Blow
A Warrior may spend a life point to reduce the damage delivered from any single frontal melee
attack that has a number in the call to 0. This includes knockout, crush, vorpal..."

1.In my personal opinion (and Yes I haven't been playing that long) a skill that can stop VORPAL and KNOCKOUT should be able to stop the two together. but thats just my personal opinion.

My Point

So the Only reason anyone can justify a BASIC rouge MASTER assassin being able to knock out a MASTER warrior, is because knockout only has to match the armor point limit, not because its a super voodoo magical rouge assassin skill that knocks you the f' out.

The potential solutions

1.Change the way knockout works so that it has to surpass armor points

Effect-many angry rouges because not on;y can they not knockout people with parry now they can't knockout people with heavy armor all together.

2.change knockout to sleep.

Effect-Many Angry warriors because now not only can assassin rouges but plain old rouges can sleep you ant you can't stop it.

3.make knockout not have a # in the damage which would also cause you to have to rewrite assassin to accept calls without damage in them.

Effect-Annoyed GM's because now they have to figure 2 brand new skills for rouges to have because having "Basic Knockout, Advanced Knockout, and Master Knockout" Is a waste of time if they all do the same thing. And not to mention Warriors will be yet again pissed because now a basic rouge skill can beat a MASTER WARRIOR SKILL

4.Change Parry so that it says "A Warrior may spend a life point to stop any frontal melee attack. This includes knockout, crush, vorpal..."

Effect-easy for GM's, Rouges can still knockout people with armor on, Rouge Assassins can still knockout any path but a warrior must be hit in the back. And Warriors can parry a frontal vorpal knockout Everyone wins and the system stays balanced!!!!!!

Ark · Post by **Ark** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:52 pm

hmmm, i like 4, take the number thing out of the whole thing, makes warriors awsome at the fronf, but weak at the back, like they used to be

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:34 am

And overpowered.

As for changes, making level 4 assassin either "Sleep" or "Vorpal Knockout" (these are the same call) is exactly how the skill worked for many years. It was changed to increase it's power slightly (we only had like 1 assassin in game), but in the process added confusion to the playerbase. Reverting it shouldn't be an issue and the effect will be clear when used.

And, yeah, Paladin was broken for a whole different reason. Basically, it allowed for a combo of (near) infinite life.

Onimaster · Post by **Onimaster** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:43 am

I do not think that the rule needs to be changed due to clarity. You all seem to understand it fine... It just seems you are unwilling to believe it works the way it is written or that it is somehow an error in judgment.

I think there are other things that need our attention long before I loose sleep over this.

Post by **GM-Mike** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:49 am

Yeah, what Eric said. Your solution makes the assassin weaker, which I refuse to do. The number of fourth level assassins are quite small. It takes an unbelievable amount of time to charge. It is then interruptable. It can be blocked with a shield which most of the warriors have. I really don't see the problem with allowing warriors to feel a small amount of fear from one or two people from the front.

If it is going to cause this much heartache, I have no problem returning the skill to just a "sleep" call--note that there is no number and thus not parryable. There is some debate as to whether this is weaker or stronger but it is definitely easier.

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:54 am

Actually, "Sleep" would also surge through shields, making it slightly easier to use, which actually compensates for the loss. Funny, I didn't see that when it initially changed.

Zeira · Post by **Zeira** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:01 am

A sleep call would surge through weapons and shields. And the charge would be 30 seconds (I don't know how old sleep works as far as charge time).

That change would also make their 3rd level ability less useful also. No more vorpal poison.

While we are on assassin, does poison until your first successful strike or the duration of the scene?

EDIT: Damn your faster fingers!!!

Post by **GM-Mike** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:05 am

Yep, it makes their fourth level more powerful (though less versatile) but their third weaker. (insert sarcastic tone here) But at least the warriors won't complain anymore...

dier_cire · Post by **dier_cire** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:16 am

Zeira wrote:EDIT: Damn your faster fingers!!!

{Nelson} Haha! {/Nelson}

Course, pure assassins shouldn't be bothered using vorpal poison unless they are breaking a weapon anyway. This just reinforces it.

cole45 · Post by **cole45** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:23 am

"vorpal knockout" would also surge if it had no number.

sleep was removed to reduce the use of NON magic sleep.

Again, i think it's fine the way it is.

Poison is an active skill that lasts until the end of combat. we could make poison a passive skill, like enchant weapon.

Zeira · Post by **Zeira** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:58 am

cole45 wrote:Poison is an active skill that lasts until the end of combat.

I apologize for my ignorance, does active skill mean that once active it can be done over and over again...

"1 Poison"
"1 Poison"
"1 Poison"

...and can be use in cojunction with other charged and life point abilities?

Altearez · Post by **Altearez** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:58 am

"The assassin may append the damage call "vorpal" to their next melee attack that contains
a number."

So we shouldn't even be talking about just "vorpal knockout" based on the rules it cant be done.

Rouge Assasin is talking to a warrior, rouge doesen't like warrior, rouge is charging their call for 35sec (3 vorpal knockout) warrior can't parry it.

above is gay.

IF PARRY STOPS A MELEE ATTACK AND REDUCES IT TO ZERO HOW DOES IT BYPASS MY ARMOR STILL, YOU NEED DAMAGE FOR VORPAL TO WORK WTF!!!!!!! AND HOW IS IT THAT MUCH MORE POWERFULL IF A WARRIOR THAT CAN BLOCK IT WITH A SHIELD CAN SPEND A LIFE POINT TO DO THA SAME THING!!!!!

we have 4 rouge assasins in cpring haven and I hear Vorpal knockout ALL THE TIME, it isn't an unused skill, AND CHANGING IT TO SLEEP IS A WORSE IDEA, MAKE A SURGING CALL THAT ALREADY CANT BE PARRIED AND CAN"T BE BLOCKED BY SHIELD OR SWORD MAKES NO SENSE!!!

and again just my opinion.

cole45 · Post by **cole45** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:25 am

1. "vorpal knockout" was a suggestion

2. sleep was fine before. it would be fine again. Invalid argument. experiance proves other wise.

3. warriors and parry are not ALL powerful. EVERYTHING has a counter.

4. vorpal says your armor is treated as being zero. knockout is not damage. YOU NEED DAMAGE FOR VORPAL TO WORK (false assumption.)

5. any 2 pcs can kill any 1 pc.

6. If you let someone charge for over minute to hit you, you deserve what are about to receive.

7. just because somethings been done wrong for a year does not make it right.

zeira: poison can't be combined with skills like critical strike but can be used with passive skills like weapon focus.

it's a charge skill, and can not be used with other charge or life point skills unless something says other wise.