More Feed Back

[cole45]

I think The life points should be a balancing tool. I don't think they should be whily nilly.

powerful boons = 1 lp. Weaker boons = more life.

Example: Orc. Orc has a weak boon(press, disipline 1 boon.)They deserve the life point.

Tsunataur has one of the most powerful boons in the game, being an ADVANCED path skill. They should not.

[GM_Chris]

We went through and added the points up and actually it looks like Guthrie wins as the most powerful and they are a 1lp skill.

Granted Tsunitar is at about the same level. Oh and at the time it was not an advanced skill it was a basic skill I think.

The orc on the other hand is way way at the bottom.

[dier_cire]

course you can't base the skill only on the points it costs. Usability is a huge factor.

Tsunotaur - only useful when bleeding to death. Used infrequently
Orc - Press is fairly useful in combat.
Elf - Channel is always useful.
Dwarf - useful on rare occasions.
Guthrie - Immune to fear is just awesome. (a guthrie warrior paladin is a defensive god)
Valk - I'm not sure I've ever seen the skill used.
Avyiana - 1 vorpal taken every 5 seconds is awesome.
Ga'vin - eh, healing is cheap and can be used on others.
Human - damn it's nice.

If I had the choice (especially now that it's also a path skill) I'd go for something far more useful. I think I've used my skill once, maybe twice ever, but use press all the time. I'd consider press far more valuable. Personally, I think most people vastly underestimate press' usefulness.

All in all, I'm against all races having one life. I'm also against balancing racial skills on points alone.

[Slisk]

I'm with the bull. Normally the healers get to you within a minute if you're bleeding to death. If they can't get to you in one minute, then typically they won't be able to reach you in two, either. I can't imagine the Tsunataur boon actually making a difference as being anything more than extremely rare.

[cole45]

I agree.

"course you can't base the skill only on the points it costs. Usability is a huge factor. "

This is a flaw.

Their cost should be related to their usability and power. That is how balance is achieved. if two items of the same cost are not as powerful....something is flawed.

Power = Usuability + Raw beef.

if usuabilty is low, then the beef must be high. then they are equal.

[GM_Chris]

Well not exactly.

I think something can be pretty powerful and still used rarely.

For example, sleep is a death sentence. If you can resist or be immune to sleep then when it does come up you are at least protected.

Depending on the event there are certain paths and diciplines that shine while others feel les uselful based on skill (not RP)

Press for example is extreamly useful in alot of situation, BUT I would not count it as "powerful" Infact since it can only be tried once the fact that it is easy against coutners its effectivness.

Also, as it was pointed out there are some things and some combos that in certain situations are simply awsome or at the very least highly specialized toward a task. The halfling Paladin I would not consider a defensive master. Granted if you are surounded by things that are continually hitting you with fear and you need to heal a friend then it can work.

Personally, I think being able to block 2 with defensive matrix makes you alot more the defensive person.

Specifically race boons is very very complicated. We have had them for a long time. Perhaps some things need tweeked but I am very very cautious about changing something that has stood for so long.

[cole45]

Let's change words.


VALUE = Usibility + Power.

Power = the raw beefiness of an ability.
Usibility = mean frequecy of effective usage.

How's that?

two things that have the same cost should have the same VALUE, but may have different usibility vs power.

example.

Hold ground
Vigor.

They are same value.
Hold grounds POWER is through the roof. It has a LOW usibility.
Vigor has a HIGH usibilty. (all the fricking time.) But a LOW power.

Therefor, if something has the same VALUE(cost), they need to be Balanced in their POWER/Usibilty.

SOOOO.

in this model we compare

tsunatuar boon = Defensive matrix.

The question is does the BOON have a VALUE = to the VALUE of defensive matrix?

I doubt it.

edit:

Defensive matrix has a Medium power, and a medium usibilty.(if not more. )

Tsunatuar boon has a Medium power and a LOW/rare usibility.

They are therefore not balanced.

[dier_cire]

Are you suggesting that every skill in basic be of low use and every advanced be of more, etc? That would over power the mid and high level skills. Certain low level skills will be of more use, but they are the staples like healing, combat reflexes, life, critical strike and booms (as the first level boom/crit is the best damge/time ratio give any +dam). Things like endurance, while not as useful, are nice and round out a level. Plus, they fit well as racial skills.

"They all can't be winners, kid."


If you really want to do something scary, make valk add +2 critical strike. Then they could do 16 crit with a crafted weapon and destroy shields

[cole45]

no. I am suggesting that all skills that you pay the same points for, should have an equal VALUE.


Administrate and Defensive Matrix should have the same VALUE.(I think they do.)

That means that things can be balanced by their POINT cost, because the point cost is a translation of value. If two skills with the same point cost have a different VALUE, the system is not balanced.

Let's look at

Defensive matrix VS Tsunataur boon.

Defensive matrix has a medium/Medium, and the TSunataur boon has a rare/medium.

Medium(X)+Medium(Y) = RARE(Z) + medium(T)

Let's use a simple scale. rare = 0, High = 3

So.

2+2 = 0+2

WAY under balanced. WAY WAY under balanced.

Let's take administrate and defensive matrix.

DM = Med/med
Administrate = MED/MED

Now we have 2+2 = 2 + 2

This is a vary simple balancing formula, but you could use it to define the game.



The simple fact of the matter is that skills need to be balanced ALONE. not in context of the other skills. If this occurs, then things can be balanced on a SKILL based level.

WHY not just balance the entire path?

because many things: BOONS,Potions,magic

are calculated separately, with out the other path skills.

[GM_Chris]

Actually alot of things come into play. We look alot at min/max. Basically certain things need to be moved around because of combo's or because we want a person to spend for the skill making sure it is less abundant.

I look alot at the MAX someone can be and compare that to the min someone can be and then compare both to an average.

[dier_cire]

I have to agree with Chris. You can't balance skills alone. If you do, you'll end up with combos that break the game. You have to look at them in context as a whole when combined with entire paths and such.

As I've told Nelkie many times. Level 1 and 2 are everyone skills. You have to base these around the fact that everyone will have them. 3 is marginal. 4 is full only. Paths are basic are everyone skills, advanced must be balanced with any level 3 skill combined with another level 4, and master is level 2 combined with level 4.

Ultimately, endurance doesn't really fal into this category (unless we added a skill that allowed for fighting in negatives again), but it doesn't have to be the same as all the rest in a path level. Basic skills in each path should be of similar power levels across each but advanced can be applied easier as there's a lot of sacrifice to have two paths at advanced.

[cole45]

That works, you just have to note that in this case the skills are not balanced.

The PATHS are balanced. This makes things more complicated, in that skills that cost the same are of unequal power.

[Atrum Draconus]

I only skimmed through cause theres alot of stuff. Personally I think all the base races should start with 1 life, balance the boons seperately without worrying about the life then.

Hidden races\paths\discipines shouldn't have to follow all the same rules because sometimes they end up with wonky stuff not the normal skills in the book so as long as they balance themsleves and don't completely outstrip normal races\paths\disciplines.

The regen is not being given proper consideration IMO. As Onyx I used it quite abit, sometimes it was just to freak out the people around me but most of the time it was because a circle had already started or there was someone else that could get healed instead of me. Granted the gargs is more like a heal but getting back 3 life just as fast as combat reflexes regen anyway without having to spend a single build pt is kinda nice.

For some reason defense has always been seen as less important(powerful) and I've always thought that was just wrong. Even Mr. Miagi say best block no be there. Every martial art even the most aggressive teach defense. Doesn't matter if you have a high power sniper rifle if you can't penetrate the protection. Fear is a very powerful skill and NO base race should get an immunity as a boon.

The human boon is too hard to quantify since it increases as the character gets higher in levels, but it's also the only boon that has nothing to do with combat at all. Which, while this game may have quite abit of other stuff going on, combat is still the highest on the step ladder of usefulness. Every character will find themselves in combat at some point of their "life", even if it's the one time you get caught in it and die. Not every character will end up doing some of the other stuff.

Is there a reason other than "Dwarves etc. are supposed to be tough" that they get extra life? It doesn't look like they neccesarily had weaker boons.