Well, I figure I got here first so I'll take a crack at it. I'll do my best to highlight positive and resist being too negative, in the hopes that my criticism may be used constructively.
Friday Positives: Friday NPCing was good fun for me. Quickly got killed as one of Pentag's goons, played some ghosts, chatted at folks and had some very good conversations, allowing me to get used to the people who attend Final Haven, as well as work on my RP skills. All in all, Friday night was fun and I really didn't feel like I needed a five dollar compensation. I'm unaware of how that went from the PC perspective.
Oh, I thought the beat was kind of neat- scary, but not instant death by any means.
Friday Negatives: The late start was kind of sad. I could have played some more NPCs before hitting bed, but the GM staff was pretty much ready to sleep.
Saturday Positives: On my second PC of the day I got to have (what I felt, YMMV) a heroic effort to take down the doors of the keep with a ragtag band of 0th level characters (can't really remember all the names) as well as Ravinal. Despite dying, I felt the righteous hammering upon the door was worthwhile, a run on the deathstar without the boom.
Saturday Negatives: Well, I died early in the morning in a battle where a game stop assured my dehydration. Then rules disputes and mistakes virtually ensured my destruction, as well as a most ugly death. Dying wasn't too bad until the excessive corpse destruction began.
While I understand corpse desecration rules were put in as a necessity to prevent it just happening (Ie. I disembowel you, then pull your arms out of their sockets and knit your intestines into a sweater), it seems instead to have put it as a standardized method for removing PC's from the game. I have heard that they had a vendetta against Haven, thus their blood orgy, but honestly I didn't even know them. It kind of almost seems like a cause and effect- put in corpse destruction rules and corpses will be destroyed, wantonly, thus preventing resurrection. Perhaps this should be more of a specialty, maybe something characters with banish can accomplish?
Anyhow, along with the corpse destruction was some roleplaying of corpse destruction. Now, if other PC's had been there to witness, it would be some nice background color, but nobody else was there- instead, it sounded like gloating. Kind of like if I did a dance at the table everytime someone died in my Call of Cthulhu game.
Well, life goes on and after some talking I decided I would make a new PC, as the current losses had definitely weakened the PC base and I figured they would need the extra body to soak up hits. I roleplayed out my second character(Arcos, Gavin Barbarian Warrior) showing up with another small group of local savages, so when they decided to storm the hole in the ground/keep/base/fort, I followed.... though I wasn't sure where I was going. But since I was there I might as well fight.
There seemed to be a lot of worry on the NPC's part about fairness and winning, considering they were fighting a pack of starter characters.
The mystical archer on the wall was being snide. Little "Buh-bye" signals when my cloak (at least a foot away from my body as I dodged) was hit by a thirty boom (charged in 30 seconds) constitutes more needless gloating. More corpse desecration for fun and profit.
After that, there wasn't even really anything to NPC, didn't have any good ideas for a character, so I played a ghost, then went to bed. I heard things about later that night, but nothing I have first hand knowledge about.
So to sum up:
1) Talking to people as NPCs to build atmosphere is fun. Positive
2) Late starts suck, but may be unavoidable. Neutral
3) Dying in a meaningful fight against impossible odds is good fun. Positive
4) Perma-death as an option seems ripe for abuse and invalidates monks 4th level ability and resurrection in general. Negative
5) Gloating is not cool. Character death is painful enough without an NPC victory dance.
So, anything that can be done to enhance the positives and reduce the negatives sounds brilliant. Please feel free to give your own summaries of the event, post suggestions, or anything else that would positively add to this thread.
I realize nobody tries to make the game less fun, so lets see what we can do to ensure the next one rocks.
April Event 2006
Moderator: Admin
April Event 2006
Kill me out of hate, kill me for money, kill me for politics, but please kill me for a reason.
Well, since I'm probably one of the few people still conscious, figured I'd start off the feedback for the event (well. start typing and then end up moving as I sent it in second 
)
Well, seeing no reason to sugar coat it, I have to say this was the worst event so far. That being said, I don't fault (in any major way) the GMs or the other PC group for this. It was an experiement, and it failed. It sucks but such experiments don't go the way we plan always.
There are a few things I will be critical of. First, this event proved one thing. A group of relative equal size designed to kill the town can do so (duh). This is really all this event proved. Now, most people given a group of people and a bunch of free levels can do this. It really takes no skill and is really no fun. Plus, once the PC group finally got organized enough to defend themselves, the other group realized this and did nothing, as the battle would have been a 50/50 shot. If they had other reasons then fine, but from previous battles, the PCs gained quite a bit on the second combat. One person in particular would have turned that combat completely to the PCs side.
Now, my biggest gripe isn't on the power of the other PCs. My gripe is on how they gained it. Evil PCs are fine. However, the reason evil PCs don't succeed normally is that the rest of the PCs won't allow it to survive long enough to garner that kind of power before being spanked down. I've played Conner twice and he's been in danger of death both times. Now, I know other evil PCs (or those that have moved to the more gray side) have had much trouble avoiding being a target of being killed. If I killed some powerful PC as Conner, it'd suck but no one could complain (too much) as I was allowed to live and found a way to do it. However, if I came in as Conner with a bunch of levels and free stuff and killed a large group of powerful PCs, it'd be just dumb and the PCs would complain (and well they should as they all earned their levels).
I guess in summary, if the other group had survived enough events to get that powerful then fine, but there is no way the good PCs would have allowed it. And I have a very hard time there was anywhere near enough alliegence to gather troops of that power. But, all in all, this isn't an event I'll hold against anyone, just one I don't want participate in again.
As for the death rules, my biggest issue is that Eater of Dead can completely prevent a character from coming back. This is just stupid. As well, those skills don't say anything about increasing costs or preventing resurection so how we got that rule I don't know. And the removing heart and brain thing also seemed wastful. I could see something along the lines of "desecrate body" that increases chip draw, but doesn't do limb removal. Personally, the necessity of the whole body seemed a waste. Anway, I'll comment more on this in the rules suggestions.
)Well, seeing no reason to sugar coat it, I have to say this was the worst event so far. That being said, I don't fault (in any major way) the GMs or the other PC group for this. It was an experiement, and it failed. It sucks but such experiments don't go the way we plan always.
There are a few things I will be critical of. First, this event proved one thing. A group of relative equal size designed to kill the town can do so (duh). This is really all this event proved. Now, most people given a group of people and a bunch of free levels can do this. It really takes no skill and is really no fun. Plus, once the PC group finally got organized enough to defend themselves, the other group realized this and did nothing, as the battle would have been a 50/50 shot. If they had other reasons then fine, but from previous battles, the PCs gained quite a bit on the second combat. One person in particular would have turned that combat completely to the PCs side.
Now, my biggest gripe isn't on the power of the other PCs. My gripe is on how they gained it. Evil PCs are fine. However, the reason evil PCs don't succeed normally is that the rest of the PCs won't allow it to survive long enough to garner that kind of power before being spanked down. I've played Conner twice and he's been in danger of death both times. Now, I know other evil PCs (or those that have moved to the more gray side) have had much trouble avoiding being a target of being killed. If I killed some powerful PC as Conner, it'd suck but no one could complain (too much) as I was allowed to live and found a way to do it. However, if I came in as Conner with a bunch of levels and free stuff and killed a large group of powerful PCs, it'd be just dumb and the PCs would complain (and well they should as they all earned their levels).
I guess in summary, if the other group had survived enough events to get that powerful then fine, but there is no way the good PCs would have allowed it. And I have a very hard time there was anywhere near enough alliegence to gather troops of that power. But, all in all, this isn't an event I'll hold against anyone, just one I don't want participate in again.
As for the death rules, my biggest issue is that Eater of Dead can completely prevent a character from coming back. This is just stupid. As well, those skills don't say anything about increasing costs or preventing resurection so how we got that rule I don't know. And the removing heart and brain thing also seemed wastful. I could see something along the lines of "desecrate body" that increases chip draw, but doesn't do limb removal. Personally, the necessity of the whole body seemed a waste. Anway, I'll comment more on this in the rules suggestions.
My posts in no way reflect that of anyone else nor are they in any way official.
I debated about posting too quickly, but I feel there are a few misconceptions from the player base I want to clear up.
First off, lets talk NPC vrs PC. No matter how much I stress they should be treated equally, and how there is no difference, I was wrong. There is a distinct difference. An NPC's fundamental job above even RP'ing is to create a "fun" environment. This means if it is more fun to go a little against your character or plot to achieve fun you do so no matter what. Some times this means killing a PC and sometimes this means dieing at the right moment even though you have hit points left.
Now a PC's fundamental job is to RP. This could mean making the event less fun for the people around them, but as a GM you hope people will appreciate the good RP even if their character basically eats a stupid death by PK.
So here we are at this experiment and I think one of the problems was we as GM's did not have a solid grasp on what Pentag and his crew was. On the same note I don’t think Pentag's group had a clear idea what they were. If the troops under their command were NPC's then we as a GM staff should have created them, gave them fun personalities and have Pentag worry about deserting and mutiny. (as a good evil person will do). If they were NPC's then we should have commanded them to fight and not run. As you well know we did neither because we treated them as PC’s
SO why did the "experiment" fail? Well it was not that far away from being a fantastic success. The problem was we as GM's treated both sides as PC's and thus kept a very hands off philosophy.
Next, we probably should have changed the weapon plot to be where the weapon will destroy the universe if it was not put together and then commanded to power down or explode. This would have facilitated both groups working together or destroying each other. There would have been a time element for suspense. Basically, it would have stopped the stalemate.
Now one thing I want to comment on was that for the most part I saw little bitching of cheating, and there was no cheating I assure you. (cheating means intent) Basically with alot of PC deaths at the hands of PC's you expect to see more.
On the other side why did the town have a hard time. The answer and I watched every engagement was organization. They had it and the town did not. The town had MORE pysreps than the enemy and more Phys reps beat higher mechanics EVERY time. As an example, in play testing 4 or 5 level 0 healers took out Ka. I really feel strongly that the player base has forgotten that. I feel some players look at the levels of an apposing force and decides the outcome without just fighting. Not saying everyone, or if that is true, just telling you all my perception.
Lets take the 1pm battle in the woods. I saw 3 PC's die (atrum, giddian, and 1 other) Did they die because Pentag didn’t accurately describe there were more of them than physreps? No … Did they die because they had more warriors? No … Did they die because they had higher levels? No … They died because, and I was watching, a group of 8 to 10 town’s people stood by on the hill watching them die. They might not realize they did that because I am sure they felt threatened by the force near them, but I assure you it was possible to stop them.
This caused a kinda downward spiral and more and more PC's died weakening the overall ability of the town. Some of them, on a RP perspective, tried some cool stuff, but I am commenting on overall strategy and bulk group power and the more deaths their were the worse chance the town had.
Despite all of this the GM’s tried to create a feeling of hope in town. With the help of the GM staff (Mike) and the PC leadership we had a whole A-team moment. People had hope and I believe no matter how much of the plan pentag new that we had a chance. I agree with Eric that we had probably a 50/50 change. I know some of the NPC’s didn’t think so, but you know I am sure in frostfell some people thought it was a given that the NPC’s were going to successfully attack every cabin, and they didn’t. I just wish we could have had the fun to find out. Even if the town was wiped we could have had future events in a darksun or ravinloft world. Would have been fun!
First off, lets talk NPC vrs PC. No matter how much I stress they should be treated equally, and how there is no difference, I was wrong. There is a distinct difference. An NPC's fundamental job above even RP'ing is to create a "fun" environment. This means if it is more fun to go a little against your character or plot to achieve fun you do so no matter what. Some times this means killing a PC and sometimes this means dieing at the right moment even though you have hit points left.
Now a PC's fundamental job is to RP. This could mean making the event less fun for the people around them, but as a GM you hope people will appreciate the good RP even if their character basically eats a stupid death by PK.
So here we are at this experiment and I think one of the problems was we as GM's did not have a solid grasp on what Pentag and his crew was. On the same note I don’t think Pentag's group had a clear idea what they were. If the troops under their command were NPC's then we as a GM staff should have created them, gave them fun personalities and have Pentag worry about deserting and mutiny. (as a good evil person will do). If they were NPC's then we should have commanded them to fight and not run. As you well know we did neither because we treated them as PC’s
SO why did the "experiment" fail? Well it was not that far away from being a fantastic success. The problem was we as GM's treated both sides as PC's and thus kept a very hands off philosophy.
Next, we probably should have changed the weapon plot to be where the weapon will destroy the universe if it was not put together and then commanded to power down or explode. This would have facilitated both groups working together or destroying each other. There would have been a time element for suspense. Basically, it would have stopped the stalemate.
Now one thing I want to comment on was that for the most part I saw little bitching of cheating, and there was no cheating I assure you. (cheating means intent) Basically with alot of PC deaths at the hands of PC's you expect to see more.
On the other side why did the town have a hard time. The answer and I watched every engagement was organization. They had it and the town did not. The town had MORE pysreps than the enemy and more Phys reps beat higher mechanics EVERY time. As an example, in play testing 4 or 5 level 0 healers took out Ka. I really feel strongly that the player base has forgotten that. I feel some players look at the levels of an apposing force and decides the outcome without just fighting. Not saying everyone, or if that is true, just telling you all my perception.
Lets take the 1pm battle in the woods. I saw 3 PC's die (atrum, giddian, and 1 other) Did they die because Pentag didn’t accurately describe there were more of them than physreps? No … Did they die because they had more warriors? No … Did they die because they had higher levels? No … They died because, and I was watching, a group of 8 to 10 town’s people stood by on the hill watching them die. They might not realize they did that because I am sure they felt threatened by the force near them, but I assure you it was possible to stop them.
This caused a kinda downward spiral and more and more PC's died weakening the overall ability of the town. Some of them, on a RP perspective, tried some cool stuff, but I am commenting on overall strategy and bulk group power and the more deaths their were the worse chance the town had.
Despite all of this the GM’s tried to create a feeling of hope in town. With the help of the GM staff (Mike) and the PC leadership we had a whole A-team moment. People had hope and I believe no matter how much of the plan pentag new that we had a chance. I agree with Eric that we had probably a 50/50 change. I know some of the NPC’s didn’t think so, but you know I am sure in frostfell some people thought it was a given that the NPC’s were going to successfully attack every cabin, and they didn’t. I just wish we could have had the fun to find out. Even if the town was wiped we could have had future events in a darksun or ravinloft world. Would have been fun!
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
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Ian_McAllister
- Town Member
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- Location: Final Haven
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I too would like to focus more on the Positives.. There were ups and downs and more than a little confusion, but as there were still some new players and the like, that is bound to happen.. I would like to put this in the history books as an attempt at something new that will definetly need some work.
We just have to remember that not all games will be awesome and wonderful.. in every moment a sucky one must arise.. in my 6 events so far this was probably the first one I would call "bad".. but only in relation to the rest I have attended.. I still had fun for the most part and plan on having even more fun in the future..
I again thank the GM staff for putting us through Hell..good job guys..
We just have to remember that not all games will be awesome and wonderful.. in every moment a sucky one must arise.. in my 6 events so far this was probably the first one I would call "bad".. but only in relation to the rest I have attended.. I still had fun for the most part and plan on having even more fun in the future..
I again thank the GM staff for putting us through Hell..good job guys..
Your Knowledge cannot save you,
Your Magic cannot save you,
Nothing can save you!
Your Magic cannot save you,
Nothing can save you!
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Onyksi Rin'oviryn
- Town Member
- Posts: 103
- Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2003 4:34 pm
- Location: six underground
Worst event I've ever attended.
Here's why.
If the GM staff was going to treat Pentag's group like PCs, they should have been PCs. Paying 25 bucks. Being 0 level characters instead of given free levels and magic items. If they were NPCs, they should have been treated as such. Being used in plot instead of letting them sit in a warm cabin while we froze for hours on end waiting for something to happen. Instead, they got the best of both worlds. The free levels and items of NPCs, and the ability to do whatever they wanted of PCs. It was very frustrating and not at all fair.
I think everyone knows the negatives of this event.
I also think the 12 PCs dying was more a result of cutting out hearts than bad organization.
I'm still very upset, so I apologize for the attitude.
Here's why.
If the GM staff was going to treat Pentag's group like PCs, they should have been PCs. Paying 25 bucks. Being 0 level characters instead of given free levels and magic items. If they were NPCs, they should have been treated as such. Being used in plot instead of letting them sit in a warm cabin while we froze for hours on end waiting for something to happen. Instead, they got the best of both worlds. The free levels and items of NPCs, and the ability to do whatever they wanted of PCs. It was very frustrating and not at all fair.
I think everyone knows the negatives of this event.
I also think the 12 PCs dying was more a result of cutting out hearts than bad organization.
I'm still very upset, so I apologize for the attitude.
Aside from my previous negatives there were positives too, just to be totally clear. THe two battles and the thrid battle prep were cool. The first battle was a loss to the PCs from the get go. We actually had physically less people on that one. Plus, while we had them on three sides with approx. five people per side, we lost one side at the very beginning, and then Pentags group slid to that position which put us in a single line versus single line situation which was a losing battle for us. We should have left far earlier than we did.
The second battle was very different. We had them on two sides, and while one side was losing, the side with Nelkie and I were definitely on a slow whittle down of the ones we were fighting. They weren't sticking together and if we would have had Sehteral with the two of us, we would have swept that line to Robin and the healers, more than likely prompting a retreat.
The assembling of the total PC group to explain what we needed was cool too. As I knew from play testing, sheer numbers will win over levels. Getting most of the PCs at least considering doing an all out attack was nice. I don't know if any or all of them would have but it would have been a very fun thing to see.
And also the clarafication on Arcane spells makes them very cool now...
The second battle was very different. We had them on two sides, and while one side was losing, the side with Nelkie and I were definitely on a slow whittle down of the ones we were fighting. They weren't sticking together and if we would have had Sehteral with the two of us, we would have swept that line to Robin and the healers, more than likely prompting a retreat.
The assembling of the total PC group to explain what we needed was cool too. As I knew from play testing, sheer numbers will win over levels. Getting most of the PCs at least considering doing an all out attack was nice. I don't know if any or all of them would have but it would have been a very fun thing to see.
And also the clarafication on Arcane spells makes them very cool now...
My posts in no way reflect that of anyone else nor are they in any way official.
Very good analysis of the 2nd battle. Trevor and I were watching and were like Oh crap they are going to get overru, but then the town was like pulling together and we ere not sure how it was going to go and then Seth got backstabbed and then Donavan did his thing and everything stopped.
All the town needed was a chance to kill off a few of their people. We did grant you a death in that battle due to a mistake of parrying vorpal back hits.
The more I think on this, and it was posted on the GM board this was actually success because we learned alot and I really believe that with the smallest of tweeks this could have been a success.
Oh and one other thing. Fun factor comes before rules. I think that is another place we failed as GM's I think we stuck too closely to the rules.
All the town needed was a chance to kill off a few of their people. We did grant you a death in that battle due to a mistake of parrying vorpal back hits.
The more I think on this, and it was posted on the GM board this was actually success because we learned alot and I really believe that with the smallest of tweeks this could have been a success.
Oh and one other thing. Fun factor comes before rules. I think that is another place we failed as GM's I think we stuck too closely to the rules.
Chris
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
I be one of the gamemasters so e-mail me questions if you have them
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Kale
- Site Admin
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This will likely not be my last post on this thread, but I would like to clear up a few misconceptions, make some apologies, etc. So here we go...
1. Apology - "Not holding back on Saturday day." (Too much PC thought, not enough NPC thought.) I really should have split my parties into two groups and ignored the PCs for the most part while trying to get the weapon on Saturday. However we were thinking too much with a PC mindset and decided to stick together. Then again, I had felt the PCs were probably more organized than what it had been and that the two groups would have ended up getting creamed. They may or may not have, but I think it would have been better overall to do so. Drogg (Steve) leading one group and me (Pentag) leading the other. It was a long week for me leading up to this (I was on a business trip to New York, had some problems with the police and the department of transportation, among other things) and I'll admit that I was tired and my brain was only half there.
2. Apology - "Holding back on Saturday night." (Too much NPC thought, not enough PC thought.) I think that Chris and Mike were right and that there was prolly a 50/50 shot. Everyone on our side was geared up and ready to go, but I was afraid that I was going to reset the game. Several of our guys were tired from making the walk to the flag and back 20-30 times. It was at that point that I started feeling more as a GM (who didn't have all the info) than a PC and made a bad call. For Pentag it would have been a great call, as it shattered the Havenites morale, but for me it was a bad decision as it appears to have shattered the player's morale.
3. Misconception - "They didn't pay and I'm pissed about how they got to kill PCs as sorta PCs." - For the record we had ~15 people in our group. We were told previous to the event that we did not have to pay because we were sort of NPCs. Of those 15 people 2 - 4 are a bit strapped for cash at the moment and would likely have NPC'd anyways (15-4=11). 1 or 2 of the players are paid up through the next few events (11-2=9). At least three of them were brand new players (9-3=6). One of them was a PC who wasn't sure if they were going to die at the beginning of the event or not, and I don't know if they paid or not, so I'm going to knock them off the list (6-1=5). And I paid for 4-5 people (was the event $20 or $25?) out of my own pocket, even though I was told that I did not have to (5-4 or 5= 1 or 0). So please divert your anger at "having not to pay" because I myself likely paid more than anyone as I made it my responsibility to pay for a few of the "NPC/PCs" and keep them all hopped up on sugar and caffeine products for the entire weekend.
4. Misconception - "They were really really powerful." I just want to clear this up really quick. If I remember correctly, I believe that most our characters were ~level 12. All of the items/potions/spells/everything were either purchased with starting character points, crafted with a certain # of pre-event-hours we were allocated, or made at the event. Yes, many of the characters were similar in build, etc, but we also had only two people and a limited amount of time to creat everyone's characters, setup all the items/potions/spells/etc we needed, etc. As I've been working 60-80 hour weeks and am in the middle of buying a house, pretty much all of this responsibility was given to Steve. As Steve has been through Final Haven Hell over the last few weeks, Eli is now prepared to take over from Arthos as "Bearer of the Charts".
5. Misconception - "They were NPCs, so why were they skull-fing my corpse and doing a little dance where no other PCs were in sight to see." - They were told to act as dreadfully evil PCs and they we the same character for the whole event, so they took on that persona. There were no "Havenites" around to see them, but there were "Evil PCs" around to see them. Many of them got a little overzealous in this, but that was mostly because they got to the point where they were sort of trying to one-up eachother in order to impress Pentaguishine as to who was more demented. I pesonally had no idea how hard it would be to resurrect the people that some of these things were done to, though after learning a little more on this subject, I am going to make some suggestions to resurrection/etc. The MAIN thing I want cleared up for the new players is that this is NOT how normal NPCs will treat corpses. This is how sick, twisted, blood thirsty, crazed semi-PCs act when hopped up on caffiene, sugar, heat exaustion, and only two hours of sleep.
6. Apology/Misconception - "Why'd we have to wait for so long for a PC cause of Arthos's death." This was not just over the "sleep incident", I decided that I wanted a GM at the battle because there were going to be some deaths and the GMs had asked me to try to have a GM in the general vicinity if we thought there was going to be alot of bloodshed occurring. There are a few other things related to this that I may bring up later, but need to discuss a few things with the GMs regarding it first.
7. Misconception - "The GMs made a bad call in allowing 'such and such' to occur." This happens in all LARPs and there will never be a first or last time. GMs have to make tough decisions and often have to make them on the spot. Some calls were made against the PCs that some didn't like, some calls were made against the "evil band of NPC/PCs" that the "evil band" didn't like. Both sides were affected and compromises were made. For instance, part way through Saturday, I had a talk with the GMs and we decided to eliminate the rest of our unspent military points. (Something to note: We started with less MP than we had really had as characters. They were primarily used for defense, messages, etc.) The GMs asked that we refrain from attacking the PCs until after we (and they) were all back from dinner. One of the GMs then allowed the PCs to attack us while most of us (and the GMs) were gone. I was told that everyone who was left was wiped out and our keep was razed. I was pretty disappointed about the call and frankly was a little upset, but was surely not going to ask for a post-rec or anything of the sort, so I began to plan what we were going to do for the rest of the night with what it was that we did have left. I was then told that they were messing with me and that one of the PCs accidentally toasted another (caught on video), which very likely turned the tide of battle in favor of those who had stayed behind and caused the "suicide run" to fail.
Unfortunately I have to be off for work now, so I'll have to wait until later to post any more of my thoughts. Just wanted to get a few of the big ones out of the way.
1. Apology - "Not holding back on Saturday day." (Too much PC thought, not enough NPC thought.) I really should have split my parties into two groups and ignored the PCs for the most part while trying to get the weapon on Saturday. However we were thinking too much with a PC mindset and decided to stick together. Then again, I had felt the PCs were probably more organized than what it had been and that the two groups would have ended up getting creamed. They may or may not have, but I think it would have been better overall to do so. Drogg (Steve) leading one group and me (Pentag) leading the other. It was a long week for me leading up to this (I was on a business trip to New York, had some problems with the police and the department of transportation, among other things) and I'll admit that I was tired and my brain was only half there.
2. Apology - "Holding back on Saturday night." (Too much NPC thought, not enough PC thought.) I think that Chris and Mike were right and that there was prolly a 50/50 shot. Everyone on our side was geared up and ready to go, but I was afraid that I was going to reset the game. Several of our guys were tired from making the walk to the flag and back 20-30 times. It was at that point that I started feeling more as a GM (who didn't have all the info) than a PC and made a bad call. For Pentag it would have been a great call, as it shattered the Havenites morale, but for me it was a bad decision as it appears to have shattered the player's morale.
3. Misconception - "They didn't pay and I'm pissed about how they got to kill PCs as sorta PCs." - For the record we had ~15 people in our group. We were told previous to the event that we did not have to pay because we were sort of NPCs. Of those 15 people 2 - 4 are a bit strapped for cash at the moment and would likely have NPC'd anyways (15-4=11). 1 or 2 of the players are paid up through the next few events (11-2=9). At least three of them were brand new players (9-3=6). One of them was a PC who wasn't sure if they were going to die at the beginning of the event or not, and I don't know if they paid or not, so I'm going to knock them off the list (6-1=5). And I paid for 4-5 people (was the event $20 or $25?) out of my own pocket, even though I was told that I did not have to (5-4 or 5= 1 or 0). So please divert your anger at "having not to pay" because I myself likely paid more than anyone as I made it my responsibility to pay for a few of the "NPC/PCs" and keep them all hopped up on sugar and caffeine products for the entire weekend.
4. Misconception - "They were really really powerful." I just want to clear this up really quick. If I remember correctly, I believe that most our characters were ~level 12. All of the items/potions/spells/everything were either purchased with starting character points, crafted with a certain # of pre-event-hours we were allocated, or made at the event. Yes, many of the characters were similar in build, etc, but we also had only two people and a limited amount of time to creat everyone's characters, setup all the items/potions/spells/etc we needed, etc. As I've been working 60-80 hour weeks and am in the middle of buying a house, pretty much all of this responsibility was given to Steve. As Steve has been through Final Haven Hell over the last few weeks, Eli is now prepared to take over from Arthos as "Bearer of the Charts".
5. Misconception - "They were NPCs, so why were they skull-fing my corpse and doing a little dance where no other PCs were in sight to see." - They were told to act as dreadfully evil PCs and they we the same character for the whole event, so they took on that persona. There were no "Havenites" around to see them, but there were "Evil PCs" around to see them. Many of them got a little overzealous in this, but that was mostly because they got to the point where they were sort of trying to one-up eachother in order to impress Pentaguishine as to who was more demented. I pesonally had no idea how hard it would be to resurrect the people that some of these things were done to, though after learning a little more on this subject, I am going to make some suggestions to resurrection/etc. The MAIN thing I want cleared up for the new players is that this is NOT how normal NPCs will treat corpses. This is how sick, twisted, blood thirsty, crazed semi-PCs act when hopped up on caffiene, sugar, heat exaustion, and only two hours of sleep.
6. Apology/Misconception - "Why'd we have to wait for so long for a PC cause of Arthos's death." This was not just over the "sleep incident", I decided that I wanted a GM at the battle because there were going to be some deaths and the GMs had asked me to try to have a GM in the general vicinity if we thought there was going to be alot of bloodshed occurring. There are a few other things related to this that I may bring up later, but need to discuss a few things with the GMs regarding it first.
7. Misconception - "The GMs made a bad call in allowing 'such and such' to occur." This happens in all LARPs and there will never be a first or last time. GMs have to make tough decisions and often have to make them on the spot. Some calls were made against the PCs that some didn't like, some calls were made against the "evil band of NPC/PCs" that the "evil band" didn't like. Both sides were affected and compromises were made. For instance, part way through Saturday, I had a talk with the GMs and we decided to eliminate the rest of our unspent military points. (Something to note: We started with less MP than we had really had as characters. They were primarily used for defense, messages, etc.) The GMs asked that we refrain from attacking the PCs until after we (and they) were all back from dinner. One of the GMs then allowed the PCs to attack us while most of us (and the GMs) were gone. I was told that everyone who was left was wiped out and our keep was razed. I was pretty disappointed about the call and frankly was a little upset, but was surely not going to ask for a post-rec or anything of the sort, so I began to plan what we were going to do for the rest of the night with what it was that we did have left. I was then told that they were messing with me and that one of the PCs accidentally toasted another (caught on video), which very likely turned the tide of battle in favor of those who had stayed behind and caused the "suicide run" to fail.
Unfortunately I have to be off for work now, so I'll have to wait until later to post any more of my thoughts. Just wanted to get a few of the big ones out of the way.
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Kale
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Just to clear up this point real quickly, no mistake was made on parrying vorpal back hits. He didn't feel the hits (people tend not to hit hard when stabbing).GM_Chris wrote:All the town needed was a chance to kill off a few of their people. We did grant you a death in that battle due to a mistake of parrying vorpal back hits.
Also, we took two deaths during that battle, not one. Two of our primary warriors were downed. Both bodies were left behind and not res'd. We actually got kind of lucky early on Saturday when we were being creamed by "The Beast" and then some PCs started closing on us and "The Beast" went after them while we healed our dying and ran for cover (which eventually led us into the mid-day conflict, I think).
Pretty much Eric (Reid) and Erika (Nuk) have expressed a lot of how I felt about the event.
The experiment just really didn't work very well.
Thanks to Chris and Mike though for the "Braveheart" rallying type of stuff on Saturday and all as well as Taki. That was pretty cool.
There were some good things....but then there were some not to great things which have already been expressed.
The experiment just really didn't work very well.
Thanks to Chris and Mike though for the "Braveheart" rallying type of stuff on Saturday and all as well as Taki. That was pretty cool.
There were some good things....but then there were some not to great things which have already been expressed.
Dead pirate betrayed by Corbyn...ah well least I made him do his own dirty work when he killed me.
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Indira Al'Estrella
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I guess one thing that I don't see any problem with is our attitude towards descrating bodies.
I wonder how many people actually researched about Pen's history, and shared information about what type of person you were about to deal with. I live with it, so I hear aobut his vileness everyday. Frankly, most of the pc's in our camp were quite disheartened at "our lord's" attitude of holding back. All weekend people were egging him on to demolish townsfolk. I pleaded with him to let me take the scouts out and pick people off one at a time. Our group was united in the fact that we were supposed to blindly follow his decisions.
That has always been a problem in Haven. Many people are unwillingly to let just one person lead and not ask questions. I'm not saying that's bad, but it allowed us to focus on action rather than decision.
As for sitting in a warm cabin....I think I might have to go to the doctor and have my knee checked out. The NPC's were adament about us having to walk back and forth to our banner spot on every action we did. So I feel there was very little "sitting" around. The Havenites could have easily layed in ambush on that fact alone. Catching us off guard would have been a good thing. Guerilla tactics work on all parties.
As for levels, we weren't that high. I took one arrow that quite near killed me. Just one shot. However, I was then quickly protected by a shield bearer and healed. I was not attacked that much, and neither were several others. When we were surrounded Saturday afternoon, I kept thinking that you were going to win very quickly. We were like a bunch of hens cornered by wolves. Just like Eric said, a change in position turned the tide. We got attacked by the beast, and some creatures in the field too. The NPC's treated our lives the same as yours.
The Havenites held back just as much as we did. They had more ability to separate in the small groups than we did, but we were never ambushed. Just like you were waiting for us to attack, we were waiting for you to attack. I figured someone had schemed a way to take the baby from us. Our retreat was an effort to save, regroup, and figure out a way out of the stalemate. When you have a pissing contest, eventually someone runs out of piss. I whole heartedly feel that Pen would have done that. He is an opportunist. When there are no reachable opportunities available, you move on.
We did pay alot of money this weekend, even though it wasn't expected. We felt that it was only fair. And as a person who asked others to represent bodies, Brad felt it was necessary to nourish and hydrate them as well. We did a lot of planning. We held meetings before the event, and worked on props and character sheets for a few weeks. We were not privy to much information about what was going to happen. In fact, it was probably about the same as the Havenites.
Kudos to the Havenites for finding so many puzzle pieces. We only found ours because we literally stumbled upon them.
Kudos to the GM's because you really stuck to your guns on making us follow the PC path.
Kudos to Pen's camp for showing up.
Kudos to the Chefs, my tummy thanks you.
Kudos to Janet and her trailsider breakfast, just what I needed on Sunday.
I wish that some things had been different, but Chris is absolutely right, a few minor tweaks would have really changed things. I hope that despite some mechanics, people had fun. We had loads of fun Roleplaying with each other, and I really enjoyed taunting people at our "negotiation". It's my wish that now you see how important action is and pair it with politics. Jim said some verbage about indecision and action that hit the nail on the head. Haven needs to spend more time working together and unifying actions. That's where you could really shine.
-Katie-
I wonder how many people actually researched about Pen's history, and shared information about what type of person you were about to deal with. I live with it, so I hear aobut his vileness everyday. Frankly, most of the pc's in our camp were quite disheartened at "our lord's" attitude of holding back. All weekend people were egging him on to demolish townsfolk. I pleaded with him to let me take the scouts out and pick people off one at a time. Our group was united in the fact that we were supposed to blindly follow his decisions.
That has always been a problem in Haven. Many people are unwillingly to let just one person lead and not ask questions. I'm not saying that's bad, but it allowed us to focus on action rather than decision.
As for sitting in a warm cabin....I think I might have to go to the doctor and have my knee checked out. The NPC's were adament about us having to walk back and forth to our banner spot on every action we did. So I feel there was very little "sitting" around. The Havenites could have easily layed in ambush on that fact alone. Catching us off guard would have been a good thing. Guerilla tactics work on all parties.
As for levels, we weren't that high. I took one arrow that quite near killed me. Just one shot. However, I was then quickly protected by a shield bearer and healed. I was not attacked that much, and neither were several others. When we were surrounded Saturday afternoon, I kept thinking that you were going to win very quickly. We were like a bunch of hens cornered by wolves. Just like Eric said, a change in position turned the tide. We got attacked by the beast, and some creatures in the field too. The NPC's treated our lives the same as yours.
The Havenites held back just as much as we did. They had more ability to separate in the small groups than we did, but we were never ambushed. Just like you were waiting for us to attack, we were waiting for you to attack. I figured someone had schemed a way to take the baby from us. Our retreat was an effort to save, regroup, and figure out a way out of the stalemate. When you have a pissing contest, eventually someone runs out of piss. I whole heartedly feel that Pen would have done that. He is an opportunist. When there are no reachable opportunities available, you move on.
We did pay alot of money this weekend, even though it wasn't expected. We felt that it was only fair. And as a person who asked others to represent bodies, Brad felt it was necessary to nourish and hydrate them as well. We did a lot of planning. We held meetings before the event, and worked on props and character sheets for a few weeks. We were not privy to much information about what was going to happen. In fact, it was probably about the same as the Havenites.
Kudos to the Havenites for finding so many puzzle pieces. We only found ours because we literally stumbled upon them.
Kudos to the GM's because you really stuck to your guns on making us follow the PC path.
Kudos to Pen's camp for showing up.
Kudos to the Chefs, my tummy thanks you.
Kudos to Janet and her trailsider breakfast, just what I needed on Sunday.
I wish that some things had been different, but Chris is absolutely right, a few minor tweaks would have really changed things. I hope that despite some mechanics, people had fun. We had loads of fun Roleplaying with each other, and I really enjoyed taunting people at our "negotiation". It's my wish that now you see how important action is and pair it with politics. Jim said some verbage about indecision and action that hit the nail on the head. Haven needs to spend more time working together and unifying actions. That's where you could really shine.
-Katie-
I wasn't going to post here but felt compelled. I hope no one in Brad's group feels that any problems with the event were their fault. You guys were playing characters and more or less stuck to it, following the scenario that we layed out. We take full responsibility for the outcome. Hard work does not always guarantee a great event, unfortunately. We needed a little more foresight, but lacking that, at least we will learn with hindsight.