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Kind of lumping all three of these into one because they all kind of revolve around the same answer to the same question and that's the overall idea of kind of game are we playing. I didn't add the investment / political / economical / whatever its called today into the title because A) it would not fit, and B) I don't know what its being referred to as these days

by army I of course mean the military system, by history I'm referring to character history, and by story I'm talking about overall idea story, and setting of the game. these are all tied to what kind of game are we playing? is it live action D&D, is it live action RISK, etc.

I hate the military and investment system so much because of how tacked on they feel and every interaction with them is forced, it boils down to being an after event number crunching mini game that while only effecting a small amount of people uses up a lot of GM downtime that could be better spent making the live action events better. it also ruins the setting of the game, setting out we were all struggling to survive after a great cataclysm had occurred, scraping by with what food we could, every event was literally a fight for individual character survival and upkeep. . .but pay no attention to the hundreds of well armed and well equipped soldiers over there, whose numbers actually outweigh the numbers of all the local villages combined. . .really?!

character backstory fits into this as well. you can get away with an epic amount of cheese these days by having a great backstory, being royalty, or rich, or what have you. some of this is nothing but words, but a surprising amount of this makes it into game and has a real mechanical effect within the world and its story. I miss the old carps rules.

-you are not a king
-you do not know a king
-you did not kill a king
-you are not a dragon
-you did not know a dragon
-you did not kill a dragon
-etc. rich
-etc. royalty
-etc.

so can you please figure out the game as a whole? are we kings and queens with militaries and soldiers whos scope has grown to that of alliances and nations? the actual events are making less and less sense with this in mind and is a huge disconnect and feels more and more like the boards and the lore provided in the news and world is the actual game more so then what happens at events. my character literally has a navy, others do to, we have players that have become actual kings and queens, actual heads of state, royal bodyguards and alliance ambassadors.

WHY are we in a small village in the Wildlands?

I will tell you why, because that's where the live event is taking place , we are railroaded into it. I have no doubt the story is interesting but one thing I have heard from MANY players is there character would not be there, we just simply are because we have to be, I NEVER had a good reason for Ark to be at an event, but hes my FH character and its a FH event so here we are.

If your intention was for players to make new characters I have already listed all the problems with that in my character turnover thread and if that was the plan then I'm sure you can see by now it failed

TL:DR:
-the military system is a shady waste of resources that only a handful of people like (and most of them are on staff )
-the ecopoliticalinvestment system was required when we had upkeep, we don't anymore, the resource and money income is imply not required and only gets dumped back in to itself or into the (SUPRISE) military system
-The lore, scope, background, and story of this game and its characters IS NOT matching up with what we are playing at live events.

I don't normally mind your posts Ark, I very rarely agree with them but they're harmless enough. I see you whining about the economic system a lot though and I feel it's high time someone spoke up in it's defense.

Ark wrote:Kind of lumping all three of these into one because they all kind of revolve around the same answer to the same question and that's the overall idea of kind of game are we playing.

Since the beginning of Final Haven there has been some sort of political/economic system in place. It has changed many times over the years as the game changed and evolved but it has always been there in some form. That means we are playing a high fantasy larp with an economic aspect to it. That IS the type of game we are playing.

Ark wrote:I hate the military and investment system so much because of how tacked on they feel and every interaction with them is forced, it boils down to being an after event number crunching mini game that while only effecting a small amount of people uses up a lot of GM downtime that could be better spent making the live action events better. it also ruins the setting of the game, setting out we were all struggling to survive after a great cataclysm had occurred, scraping by with what food we could, every event was literally a fight for individual character survival and upkeep. . .but pay no attention to the hundreds of well armed and well equipped soldiers over there, whose numbers actually outweigh the numbers of all the local villages combined. . .really?!

We are all well aware of how you feel about the military/economic system. You have made it very clear. It may surprise you to know there are aspects of the game that I don't like either. I hate PvP, it derails the plot and very often someone ends up upset. I don't complain about it or try and remove it though, because I know it's part of the game and there are people who do enjoy it. Just because you don't enjoy something doesn't mean others don't. As far as taking up GM time well, that's going to happen but I feel the staff has been doing a fantastic job delegating responsibilities and providing amazing live action events. I don't understand how military breaks immersion either. If you haven't heard, Final Haven is thriving right now. Many of the larger armies around have been gathered over years of play and for those of us with smaller forces, many of them are mercenaries and/or not well trained at all.

Ark wrote:character backstory fits into this as well. you can get away with an epic amount of cheese these days by having a great backstory, being royalty, or rich, or what have you. some of this is nothing but words, but a surprising amount of this makes it into game and has a real mechanical effect within the world and its story. I miss the old carps rules.

-you are not a king
-you do not know a king
-you did not kill a king
-you are not a dragon
-you did not know a dragon
-you did not kill a dragon
-etc. rich
-etc. royalty
-etc.

As far as I know, the people who make can make these claims have earned the right through their actions during the game. Also, people who live in glass ships shouldn't throw stones.

Ark wrote:so can you please figure out the game as a whole? are we kings and queens with militaries and soldiers whos scope has grown to that of alliances and nations? the actual events are making less and less sense with this in mind and is a huge disconnect and feels more and more like the boards and the lore provided in the news and world is the actual game more so then what happens at events. my character literally has a navy, others do to, we have players that have become actual kings and queens, actual heads of state, royal bodyguards and alliance ambassadors.

WHY are we in a small village in the Wildlands?

I don't see why a game can't be both a political game and a live action game. If you're having a hard time reconciling why your character would be in the Wildlands that's your business.

Ark wrote:I will tell you why, because that's where the live event is taking place , we are railroaded into it. I have no doubt the story is interesting but one thing I have heard from MANY players is there character would not be there, we just simply are because we have to be, I NEVER had a good reason for Ark to be at an event, but hes my FH character and its a FH event so here we are.

You are right, you are being forced to play in the place that the game is being run. It would be the same for others if the staff decided to change the setting to the high seas. You created your character. You designed their history and shaped their goals. If that takes them away from the current setting then that is not the staff's fault, you're the one who made that choice.

Ark wrote:If your intention was for players to make new characters I have already listed all the problems with that in my character turnover thread and if that was the plan then I'm sure you can see by now it failed

I'm sorry if you don't want to start over but I see new players joining all the time and having a great time. Also, there are now retirement rules for characters who want a fresh start but don't want to start from scratch. You still give up a lot but it's an option.

actually most of my posts are to encourage conversation and points of view and are often not done just for me (I PM or simply call the GM's and talk with them about the issues) but if they get responses then the GM's can get an idea of how the overall player base feels, even if we completely disagree that fact that its brought up a bunch means its an issue (quote from a GM)

I had more here but I sent it to those I thought should see it instead of scaring away further posts. you don't have to specifically agree or disagree with me. but everyone has an opinion, and even if you don't want to post it here, simply PM Mike or Jared or any other GM and let them know.

Ark wrote: I hate the military and investment system so much because of how tacked on they feel and every interaction with them is forced, it boils down to being an after event number crunching mini game that while only effecting a small amount of people uses up a lot of GM downtime that could be better spent making the live action events better. it also ruins the setting of the game, setting out we were all struggling to survive after a great cataclysm had occurred, scraping by with what food we could, every event was literally a fight for individual character survival and upkeep. . .but pay no attention to the hundreds of well armed and well equipped soldiers over there, whose numbers actually outweigh the numbers of all the local villages combined. . .really?!

Erm.. I will admit that I'm only starting to learn/take interest/ask questions about how the military system works.

I think you have the wrong picture of "military." You could collect a group of 20 refugee farmers who are displaced and no longer have fields/whatnot to work. You approach them and tell them you'll pay them to go on missions and fight for you. They agree. This is now your military. It's a pretty cruddy one, but it's a military. By no means is this a large, well armed, well trained, well armored military. However, now you can train them, get them better geared and recruit more members.

character backstory fits into this as well. you can get away with an epic amount of cheese these days by having a great backstory, being royalty, or rich, or what have you. some of this is nothing but words, but a surprising amount of this makes it into game and has a real mechanical effect within the world and its story. I miss the old carps rules.

-you are not a king
-you do not know a king
-you did not kill a king
-you are not a dragon
-you did not know a dragon
-you did not kill a dragon
-etc. rich
-etc. royalty
-etc.

Ehh.. most of the above doesn't really matter in a backstory. We've had people play princes and kings coming into the game and it hasn't hurt anything. I could make a character who is the princess of muffin land (ok, it's breakfast time and I'm hungry). Who'd care? People can come in and claim to be whoever they want. Most PC characters honestly don't care one way or the other, it's role playing. The only issue I see arise is if this this PC is expecting the GMs to give them whatever they want because they're royalty - or super powers because they're a dragon. Just because someone brings their character in saying they they're royalty doesn't mean the GMs automatically give them an army, territories (trade routes) and piles of gold, nor will you receive NPCs to use as guards protecting you during the game. These PCs need to earn things in game or buy them with character points just like everyone else. If you have friends that want to come in with you and protect you, be your servants, etc, great! It adds to the belief and immersion of your story, just don't expect the established characters of town to follow suit - a good deal of them won't follow their own leaders/dukes/kings/queens they have put in charge themselves.

With how screwed up Phantara is after a few cataclysms, there's bound to be some displaced royalty of this and that pop up. Not only that, but you have portals to different realms and people who have seen an opportunity in the chaos to declare themselves a lord, king, captain, etc. It works quite well with this setting actually. Oh! And elves.. don't most high elves consider themselves one form of nobility or another?

are we kings and queens with militaries and soldiers whos scope has grown to that of alliances and nations?

I think there are a couple...

the actual events are making less and less sense with this in mind and is a huge disconnect and feels more and more like the boards and the lore provided in the news and world is the actual game more so then what happens at events. my character literally has a navy, others do to, we have players that have become actual kings and queens, actual heads of state, royal bodyguards and alliance ambassadors.

not really sure what you're asking here, but Kooky is right. Haven is prospering. Silvan'Dar has suffered recently (pre 5 year jump), but I believe they are on the mend and are growing - I think the relationship between them and Haven is also on the mend. I know there are a few other large well known NPC kingdoms out there and I assume it's the same as far as growth and relations with Haven. I will admit, I'm not currently in the middle of the diplomatic scene, so I'm not 100% sure.

Yes, we have made people leader of town and named them such things as King/queen/duke/counsel member/lord/knight. These are just titles we, as players, have given other players to let the rest of the players and NPCs know we have given them specific jobs to do in game. If you're not on that bandwagon, that's fine too! If at some time "the people" no longer wish for that person to be doing that job.. well, I'm sure that'd be messy and end in bloodshed - but it can be done.. and I'm pretty sure it has been done.

As for the news, much of this has to do with updates on how Haven is doing, maybe some clues as to what we should look into during the upcoming event, and maybe some PC announcements (and some fun jokes and riddles!!!).

WHY are we in a small village in the Wildlands?

I will tell you why, because that's where the live event is taking place , we are railroaded into it. I have no doubt the story is interesting but one thing I have heard from MANY players is there character would not be there, we just simply are because we have to be, I NEVER had a good reason for Ark to be at an event, but hes my FH character and its a FH event so here we are.

Oh! Oh! I know this one! We are in the wildlands now because after doing a CRAP TON of work, Haven is finally a nice, safe, kingdom.. mostly. It's a great place because we made it that way - Something about the GMs wanted to show how our efforts are not in vain and through hard work, and many battles/struggles, we were finally successful.

But why the wildlands? It's a why not Haven anymore first. Well, out of game, the GMs think that Haven would be too boring of a place to have an event. There wouldn't be much fighting and struggle with how nice and safe it is now days. There would be a lot with diplomacy and power struggles and things you might see in a TV drama that take place in kingdoms/royal courts. No random monster encounters.

Again, why the wildlands? .. well, for the opposite stated above. In game, we are uhh.. colonizing the frontier! The GMs think that this "wild land" is the type of setting the PCs want and it's worked so far.

I agree that we were railroaded into it. I'd love to be back at Haven (but I'm usually the minority in my opinions). I have a character that thought being at Haven was "slumming it" so it's a VERY fat chance she'll show up in the wildlands. Which is kinda sad as I have been itching to play her. There is little reason for her to be in Haven let alone the wildlands - but I've found that if you're struggling for a reason for your character to be in the event setting, talk to a GM and they can help figure it out.

TL:DR:
-the military system is a shady waste of resources that only a handful of people like (and most of them are on staff )
-the ecopoliticalinvestment system was required when we had upkeep, we don't anymore, the resource and money income is imply not required and only gets dumped back in to itself or into the (SUPRISE) military system
-The lore, scope, background, and story of this game and its characters IS NOT matching up with what we are playing at live events.

To some degree I can see the first 2 points, but defiantly not the 3rd. Is it possible that mostly staff are the ones that like the military system because through their role as staff have had to know the ins and outs of the system, and because they've actually taken the time to learn it, they like it. Yes, as an outsider, the military system or "ecopoliticalinvestment system" can be very intimidating. There are lot of questions that aren't answered in the book (yet), and I'm sure that's being worked on as time permits which does suck. As a WH NPC one of the most common questions I hear is, "how much do I need to pay for a regional adviser?"

There have been people who made their characters around being good at the ecopolictialinvestment system (yea, it's a word now), and that's almost all their character is good for. They get their enjoyment from this section of the game and it shouldn't be dismissed because others don't like it. - just as there are some people who enjoy combat and build their character completely around that, because that's where they get their enjoyment and that's the character they want to play. Whether you're fully into the ecopoliticalinvestment system or combat, it's completely possible to play the game while, for the most part, ignoring the other. I think most characters sit somewhere in between.

And trust me, there are LOADS of things you can easily toss all your hard earned coin towards that have nothing to do with the ecopoliticalinvestment system.

awesome response again. and I do agree with nearly all of your reasoning and understand why things are the way they are. (I did have a much larger post but it felt to confrontational so I didn't post it) and thanks for making ecopoliticalinvestment a word as well XD

my biggest problem with it is how much free power it is without requirements, if it was a path that gave you access to everything within the system so that your character was built around it and paid an actual price (skill points) and only those with the path could access it and the power it granted was overall about that of a normal path then I would be totally happy. but right now the disciplines are optional. you can take two identical warrior knights, one uses the ecopoliticalinvestment system to its fullest and the other ignores it completely and the difference in wealth and power is huge for no character cost. at this point it begins to feel and look as though you HAVE to use the system in order to stay competitive, that's. . .annoying to say the least.

character backstory fits into this as well. you can get away with an epic amount of cheese these days by having a great backstory, being royalty, or rich, or what have you. some of this is nothing but words, but a surprising amount of this makes it into game and has a real mechanical effect within the world and its story. I miss the old carps rules.

-you are not a king
-you do not know a king
-you did not kill a king
-you are not a dragon
-you did not know a dragon
-you did not kill a dragon
-etc. rich
-etc. royalty
-etc.

those rules...and this set of guidelines...is speaking about PC histories BEFORE the first event the PC is played in...not what a PC earns or becomes or gains after....which is obvious if the rules section this excerpt is form...reads that section in its entirety.

even if we completely disagree that fact that its brought up a bunch means its an issue (quote from a GM)

Then the GM is wrong, since all it means its brought up a lot, it in no way means its an issue.....which is clear to anyone that realizes any group can be wrong...even a majority.

we are railroaded into it.

and this...is the MOST inaccurate out of all the posts...to be railroaded into it...the GMS would have to change the setting...and DICTATE what PC you played. You had...and have a choice. We all did. In fact one withered old painted wizard made that choice...because that is what he PC would do. That's called role playing.