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**DISCLAIMER** this is not a current or previous iteration of the system bash thread, simply a question about the inclusion or replacement with a new one (or old one as the case may be) so please don't be offended as I mean to suggest only that witch you find most flattering and least objectionable. /**DISCLAIMER**

Can we perhaps have the return of the guild system?

I was SOOOOO happy to not have to deal with anything eco / political / investment related. I was able to simply enjoy myself and go on plots with those others whom I enjoyed to go on plots with.

however. the lack of upkeep has fractured town as everyone is not gathered under the skirt (or kilt) of the great provider. now, while I do prefer this fracture a billion times over the upkeep system. I would like to see grouping encouraged whilst not required. thus the suggestion of the guild system. as of this moment I have no mechanical outline or suggestions to put forward in this post other then a mechanic that encourages the grouping of individuals, known in the fantasy community as "guilds"

opinions would be most welcome, positive will be rewarded with praise, criticisms and negativity with a possible oubliette

~~~{@ Ark

why not just form your own guild like Kyle was doing.

The lack of need for minimum upkeep isnt the cause of the factions, thats about in game character personality dynamics.

LARPers are like cats, and only a rare few can herd them into a single direction.

I can almost entirely agree with that. (and I do have my own group ^_^)

however, I think a system that offers some incentive for grouping will see more grouping than one that offers none at all don't you? (baring extreme Brian circumstances and scenarios)

for instance if you come to a game alone and there are various groups in said game, but no incentive what so ever to group with them you might very well stay alone depending on your disposition (how shy you are, etc.) but if you knew that if you joined up with one of those groups you got a free gold (example not suggestion) I have no doubt that it would sway your disposition to try and join one of the groups (baring extreme Brian circumstances and scenarios)

then further more if you put lore and RP behind them such as a fighters guild and a mages guild, etc. you would further sway another group of people. a character comes into game alone as a warrior, then finds out there is a warriors guild that recruits and pays warriors, he might stop by and see what its all about. (baring extreme Brian circumstances and scenarios)

forming bonds with various groups and players is also going to keep those players around longer (we see this in most other forms of games) where they don't want to leave or want to keep playing the character because of the bonds or stories that have been created with others. (once again baring extreme Brian circumstances and scenarios)

so those are some of the various reasons I think a guild system can be beneficial for a game and should be supported by the GM's/NPC's

<3 Ark

I am not apposed to some sort of in game guild system, as long as it is simple and the rewards make sense. The problem with the old guild system was guilds had to be rearranged all the time depending on who showed up. At WH we have been kicking around the idea of adding a special perk that would signify that a player is part of a certain group. You would have to meet the requirements to join that group before you can take the perk, such as getting good favor with them or completing a test. Once part of a group you would have access to that groups special technique, a skill that you can buy outside of path and discipline, and there may be other some other advantages as well but they would be mostly RP.

Here's an example. At WH we have a group called the Kaldorien Rangers. Some players have expressed interest in joining them. If we allowed it they could then use a perk to join up. They can then purchase the War Scout skill. This is the scout skill but also allows them to cover their tracks and scout at the same time. There may be other benefits to joining the Kaldorien Rangers as well, such as special plots, information of the happenings around the Witchwood, protection in times of need, ect.

I can see a player starting a guild with this system as well. They'd have to work with the staff to come up with their guild skill and then invest an appropriate amount of cost. The cost of course could be anything from money, resources, rp, special plot items, or anything really. It would likely require a guild charter of some kind that would include the requirements to join the guild, as well as anything else the guild wished to include, such as goals, laws, ect.

I kinda like that idea Kooky, as long as its not cheese dicked like what i hear the old system was.

just to be clear im not saying bring back the old guild system as in bring back the exact system and its mechanics, im simply stating bring back a guild system as in we had one before.

I would be against using perks or character points to join a guild (and realize your not really suggesting such) because perks obviously have a level tied to them and character points for a similar reason, there should really be no downside or loss to your character for joining a guild. I agree with a charter of sorts but agree that the messing with it every event or when people show up needs to be taken out of consideration (but that was mostly because of support points. and thus could be easily avoided)

I will think on this more as there are some people I need to chat to about it.

Cheers -Ark

1) Your long string of examples was pointless and a tad insulting, since not only am I smart enough to know that offering incentrives will draw people to ANYTHING to varying degrees, AND I was playing during the first several guild system incarnations. I have seen them in action. I was simply pointingout, that there would still be a half dozen factions as each of the cliques thatwere around last event would just EACH form thier own guild....just like the first guild system.

2) You have mentioned what your AGAINST as incentives, but not what the wise and all knowing ARK thinks he would be ok with using as incentives; that would not , at the same time, drive the game back into the usless drivel stage it was in when there was upkeep and such highly flawed simulated realities.

lol, was not meant to be insulting, rather much like you accuse me of making everything a video game. you have a habit of finding an extreme example to counter an argument (such as when I said almost any RP was good RP) so I was more poking fun at that. im actually quite surprised you felt insulted at all given the self professed non-sugar coated method that you apply to your own conversations.

my first event was at WH near the end of the guild system, and it was because of that system that I met Phil and Scott whom I otherwise might not have gotten to know. and sure, cliques and groups will always exist, but I have no doubt that people will attempt to reach outside of their comfort zone if incentives are provided (meet new people? no! meet one person and I give you a cupcake? well I guess I could say hello!)

and finally I am currently mulling over possible ideas for a system. I purposefully did not include the mechanics of said system because a) I have not done the research on the subject or talk to individuals who have more knowledge on the subject than I so as to gather data with witch I can make conclusions to present. and b) I did not want to turn the thread into a mechanics debate that people might not like and associate with said guild system thus turning them away from the idea of a guild system based on a theoretical mechanics argument that could have nothing to do with the final implementation of said system (do you want a cake? of course! do you want a poop flavored cake? NO!)

-Ark

Ark wrote:I would be against using perks or character points to join a guild (and realize your not really suggesting such) because perks obviously have a level tied to them and character points for a similar reason, there should really be no downside or loss to your character for joining a guild.

I am in fact suggesting using perks and character points to join a guild. However, I also understand that perks come with levels and they are limited. I think adding more perks to the progression would not be a bad thing, in fact I know it's already being looked at. I also think adding an earlier perk wouldn't be too bad. As for a player that wants to join a guild before then, they can become an initiate. Once they prove themselves and buy the perk then they can become a full member. As for the character points, if there is an in game benefit to being in a guild there should also be a cost, although maybe not everyone who joins a guild buys the skill in which case they don't spend any CP. They just spend a perk that was added to the progression so they could join a guild.

While I like the idea of adding guilds like this I don't really see how adding guilds reduces factions from happening. If anything it reinforces it as people may not want to group up with people outside of their guild. The only thing that will ever get everyone working together is if everyone takes direction from a central point and that doesn't seem to be what most players want.

Phinkis wrote: As for the character points, if there is an in game benefit to being in a guild there should also be a cost.

the current eco / political / investment system disagrees with you. you CAN purchase skills that make you MORE effective. but it is not required and there is never any loss or risk of loss with dealing with the current eco / political / investment system. but really I digress.

im actually quite surprised you felt insulted at all given the self professed non-sugar coated method that you apply to your own conversations.

there is a big difference between FEELING insulted and knowing a statement for what it is. The circle of people whose words might make me FEEL insulted is small, and while I think your a good guy, you arent among those people.

As for my examples, they only seem extreem due to inexperience.

While I like the idea of having groups/guilds that are ingrained in the world, that players don't run, I don't think anything has to change in the system we have. The reason groups form are not JUST about incentives, they're about OOG and IG friendships, character types and styles, and RP decisions. If you are a shy player, and play a anti-social character, then you shouldn't be joining a "guild" because that's not what your character would do. Also, we would still have mini-factions if we were all having our upkeep paid. I think new players SHOULD be encouraged to find a group to adventure with, but it shouldn't be an in-game mechanic. The benefits of being in a group already give player's benefits that the game doesn't need to provide. While cheesy, the rules can't provide friendship, and you get that by hanging around a group of players. I think the main problem with how the game works in terms of factions right now is not caused by the rules, but by the players. People are less inclined to work together or let anyone new if their group, which makes the atmosphere tense and unwelcoming (especially to new players). I think if anything has to change it is player's attitudes; sometimes it's not the rules that are at fault.

If anything I could see class of guild perks. We already want to look st adding heroic perks anyway.

Ie. Members of the hunters guild count as an extra scout with other hunters. Not the actual skill scout just as an exytra one.