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FH Political changes 2014
Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:04 pm
by Ark
did not want to hijack the other thread as I saw it was already starting to go this way
as everyone is aware I am against the political system in its current incarnation, im sure they can be made fun, but I don't feel this one is. I have seen how it works from a PC and GM perspective, I get how it works, and I still choose to ignore it.
I was to a less extent against the survival system, again, its implementation, not a survival system in general. it ended up being that everyone went to one person for there upkeep and that was it as far as the fight for survival. it was also along the lines of:
-you get punished for doing nothing
rather then
-you get rewarded for doing something
they sound the same, they really are not.
my current "beefs" with the system are as follows:
-1) you get what you put into the system, free of character point cost. the political system costs nothing to get into from a character point side of things, sure you CAN buy skills to improve your political skills, but you can still be fairly effective with no downside mechanically to your character.
"but Ark, that is a good thing no? anyone can participate for free!"
true, however a lot of people want nothing to do with the political system, and this puts them at a disadvantage to the few that do want to deal with the system and have to invest nothing as far as character points are concerned to receive massive benefits , this is by design not balanced. to participate in the political system in any way should cost you character points, period.
-2) everything that can be done in the political system should be represented by skills (this is along the lines of above) there is a difference in perception of buying a skill and getting a benefit, or saying that a benefit is out there go and find it. that perception is enough to stop people from participating in a system, example:
you can buy a candy bar for 1$, or you can have it for free if you can find it. both require some form of effort to acquire, but one is a solid and tangible amount of effort, the other is not. this perception can and will turn people away and cause them to just not bother, we have seen this.
TL;DR: taking part in the political system in any way should cost character points for the sake of balance and fairness.
Re: FH Political changes 2014
Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:07 am
by Kaylan Chargeender
1) there is no political system game mechanic. I assume you mean the economic one.
2) LARPing is about doing rather than saying and dice rolling, the skills are for simulating things that we cant really do(throwing magic) or would be too dangerous( KO attacks) or would take more time than the scope of a single event(research). If a player wants to get immersed in the economics of owning rescources and commadaties, they should HAVE to "go find it", thats part of the adventure.
3) "it ended up being that everyone went to one person for there upkeep and that was it as far as the fight for survival. "
Yup...because that one person was very skilled and illigent at..."go find it". See what can happen when a player DOES instead of GRIPES??
Re: FH Political changes 2014
Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:05 am
by GM-Taki
Ark, would you advocate a similar points based ability restriction for the combat system? If it's unbalanced for Brian to use his superior wit and guile to achieve an economic benefit without spending points, is it also unbalanced for you to use your superior agility and speed to achieve a strategic benefit without having to spend points?
As you said, "Sure, you CAN buy skills to improve your "combat" skills, but you can still be fairly effective with no downside mechanically to your character". Should we also have skills for "Notice enemy", "Find Treasure" and "Move silently"?
Re: FH Political changes 2014
Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:25 am
by Ark
1) political vs economic. a lot of people refer to it both ways, making a point out of this is just simple downplay
2) everyone going to one person. the reason this happens is not because one person is clever. its usually because nobody else wants to deal with it. recent changes should prove that. I know because I have been very close to those people that have been the one person and even they did not want to deal with it but felt obligated to.
3) I completely understand your point Taki. but combat is as balanced and fair as the rules can make it. and I fully agree that mobility is a key point in combat (I thought resist root/slick was one of the best skills in the game and a lot of people ignored it :p) but never the less we do have skills in game that balance combat, skills I still have to take if I want to be effective.
I do disagree with your examples though. as most of that is live action rather then exploiting a massive system that has no balance for massive benefits, rather then being the first to notice an enemy or someone that's quiet. (we do have "spot" though btw, and "scout")
4) I know about how many people take part in this system, and even amongst that number about half don't like it or want to, but they have to. Taki you must understand that having you, Phil, and Jared. 3 people that LOVE the idea of a complex eco system working on a new one actually scares me. there is always going to be a place for real world skill to provide benefits in a larp system. but to have one balanced around that idea is NOT balanced and NOT fair to the rest of the players, simple as that.
we have a system for balancing players against one another, its a character sheet, and character points. any benefit you get out of the eco/political system should be properly balanced against other skills and have cost associated to it accordingly. if you go in game to RP with a farmer and they give you a few extra resources, that fine. but the current incarnation is neither balanced nor fair, and any decent system or game should be.
Re: FH Political changes 2014
Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:55 am
by GM-Taki
I understand your concerns, but what your suggesting isn't a matter of systemic balance. Everyone has equal access to the economic system, and no one enjoys any kind of mechanical advantage when it comes to the acquisition of holdings, territories, resources or trade routes. There are a set of skills in-game that can make the utilization of those skills more lucrative, but there is no inherent imbalance in an open system with unrestricted access to all members.
The purpose of a character sheet is not to balance PLAYERS against each other. If it was, the combat-related movement skills I alluded to above would be part of the game. We'd have endurance skills that would regulate how long you could stay active in combat and modifiers for you height, weight and dexterity. No, the purpose of a character sheet is to balance CHARACTERS against each other, and that is something it accomplishes successfully. Since every CHARACTER has equal access and ability to utilize the economic system, the rules are balanced and the system is fair.
If someone's interests and natural talents give that PLAYER an advantage within the system, that does not mean the SYSTEM is unfair or unbalanced. If you take up Kendo and train yourself in evasive techniques the system should not demand that you spend additional points to utilize your personal skill and mobility. The skill point system will dictate whether you swing for 1, 2, 3 damage, etc, but the system does not constrict your natural physical talents. The same goes for intellectual and social talents. If we introduce a puzzle in-game that you can figure out, you shouldn't need the skill "Puzzles" to solve it. If Brian can manipulate people to do his bidding he shouldn't need the skill "Manipulate" to make his abilities manifest.
Your underlying contention appears to be based on the fact that you, yourself are not interested in dealing with the economic system. That's fine, and both the current system and the new prosperity scenario give you the ability to participate fully in the game while ignoring it. You now no longer need personal upkeep and can seek out treasure (or theft, or graft, or murder...) to acquire whatever else your heart desires. Should you want to enjoy additional gains or special items, the economic system is available to you in the exact same way it is available to any other player.
Re: FH Political changes 2014
Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:02 pm
by Ark
Alchemy was changed because it was an open ended system that allowed for infinite growth. a new player walking into game was DRASTICLY behind an established alchemist.
The current systems is flawed in that it is an open ended system that allows for infinite growth. all while having no cost to the player. this is also justifying the accumulation of wealth and power through role playing with no cost to character cost.
Now, not only is it an open ended system with infinite growth, that only a few people want to deal with, that allows for accumulation of wealth and power, that greatly benefits and established character/player over a new one. on top of all that, it has the means within the system to take other peoples territories and such.
so even IF a new player came in, and even IF they wanted to get into the system (two big if's) the established player could take control of any work they had done no problem.
If people cannot see the problems with this system. . .well I will still bring them up but that's insane.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Merchant--Privileged Level 1: Trade – Between events The Merchant gets 20 copper at check-in.
Final haven views 20 character points worth approximately 20 copper. how much character points worth of wealth do we suppose Korrigan has? exactly.
Re: FH Political changes 2014
Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:05 pm
by Kiel Reid
Look...
You guys need to find a way to simplify the mechanics of the economic system, make it more new player friendly and less time consuming for staff/players.
The focus has never been on role playing with the economic system. Number crunching wins. Hands down. To be honest that is how it works in real life too. However lets not BS around and say that your roleplay counts because its impact is minor.
The only time roleplay matters is when you fail. If you don't do the right thing then you are punished. If crunch the numbers too well you are also punished. This is because if you really min/max the system the GMs have to stop it because it will cause an imbalance. So your holding gets attacked or crop yields are low.
"But what about the troops I put there?!?"
"It would have been way worse if you hadn't put them there."
Ok...
Lets look at it from a different angle. Who is having fun with it as currently implemented? Taki was happy. Dani wasn't happy so she differed most of it to Taki, Matt is dissatisfied and Josh just hates it. I'm not feeling it either. Neither was Melissa. Travis utterly destroyed it as did Jared who still has yet to receive his spoils.
I hate to name names like that but I'm just trying to give this some actual examples. If I'm wrong feel free to correct me.
Bottom line is this. I really hope you guys plan on making some changes that will address some of these issues. It is the best opportunity to do so.
Re: FH Political changes 2014
Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:15 pm
by Ark
christen hates it too ^_^
Re: FH Political changes 2014
Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:13 pm
by cole45
The economic system is so that people who like resource management games will like this. you don't need it to play the game.
If people who don't like get put in charge, that is not really the system's fault. That would be like putting non comms guarding a door.
This year will be the first time the system is fully used at FH the way it was intended. Phil will be doing that for the FH because they don't have the time to understand it either.
That being said, if you got a better idea, post it.
Re: FH Political changes 2014
Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:42 pm
by Kiel Reid
I won't go through the hassle of reworking the economic system. I know because I have done it. No feedback was given and that's fine.
At the end of the day the GMs are going to make the decisions they feel are best. What I'm saying in a nut shell is this.
I like that Final Haven has an economic system and I would like to use it. However it is poorly executed and frustrating in actual practice. I feel as though some changes need to be made to make it better. This is the perfect time for an overhaul.
Re: FH Political changes 2014
Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:50 pm
by Ark
find out what you want your system to do. after that keep it from being twisted away from that idea.
right now its simply a way to mass personal wealth to be used at that persons discretion. be that buying and up keeping magic items, buying potions, buying and up keeping magic items, building structures, buying and up keeping magic items, buying military to further protect and steal other territories, buying and up keeping magic items, helping the community, or finally buying and up keeping magic items.
I want to see it turned away from personal gain, and be more focused on growing the world. . .I realize there would be no personal gain in that, but still. if that was its original purpose, well its become slightly twisted and needs to be fixed.
Re: FH Political changes 2014
Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:53 pm
by Marcus
The biggest thing is that 80% of the economic system exists off-paper, or is at least very hard to access for many of the players. Also, mechanics for the system should not be getting invented or tweaked at check-out.
To the layman the economic system seems very non-transparent in how the rules work, or when they are modified/invented. It is very hard to get a handle on a system constantly in flux when you are not one of the people who are closest to those changes.
Re: FH Political changes 2014
Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:12 pm
by GM-Phil
To Ark - the reason we refer to it as an economic system rather than a political system is that in the long past this system was a "political" system at its core but we have pulled away from that and have separated Politics (into RP) from Economics (mostly mechanics). Now not saying as Taki has shown, just like in the real world have a grasp of the economic side can aid you in Politics.
As for clarity of the system - all the core mechanics are in the Heroes and Villians expansion book. I would like to think they are pretty clearly worded and understandable. And if they are not I would definetly like examples so we can work on clearing those areas up.
Each Holding put into game has its own life essentially, its own personality..especially NPC ones (Those not founded by characters). So RP is especially important with these Holdings. And I would need examples of things that happen that are not in the book to know more of what is being talked about.
To Kiel - To go along with what I just said, while number crunching is a way to get the most out of a Holding, it is not necessarily the best way to get and maintain one.
As for the simplicity of the system for me - it is relatively easy to track, I can usually do the entirety of the WH Economy in a couple of hours. As for characters I like to think it is pretty simple as well, but you would have to ask those that play WH to know for sure.
Re: FH Political changes 2014
Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:24 pm
by GM-Taki
Alchemy was changed because brewing was tied to time (which was, on at least one occasion, extended between events) and because potions are semi-permanent, transferable objects. It still required points and skills.
The current system is open ended and does allow for growth – but that growth is by no means infinite. GM’s at both Final Haven and Winter Haven have used data from the game world and player economy to set limits on total productivity. As to the point that an established character would have an advantage over a new one, yes, just as any established character would have an advantage in terms of treasure gained, items found, friends and allies amassed, etc.
It’s important to remember that the economic system doesn't exist in a vacuum. If a new player were to come in, acquire a territory and have that territory raided by a more established player, they would not be powerless to do anything about it. Economic wealth doesn't directly translate into in-game power, and it wouldn't be long before that established player woke up with a knife in their back. Also remember that the concentration of wealth I enjoyed as Korrigan was only possible with the willing participation of numerous players. No fewer than 10 PC’s were willing to manage holdings for me and the town, and without them I would have been unable to continue my economic dominance. That arrangement came about because of in-game roleplaying and has nothing to do with the system – nor should the system be expected to correct for it.
The purpose of the economic system is to provide for resource inputs into a game that represents coin and commodities in a semi-realistic way. It also exists to give those players who enjoy such a thing the chance to build wealth and assets while effecting the game world.
Now, to Kiel’s point, I agree that the economy needs to be more accessible and understandable for all PC’s. One of the ways we’re dealing with that is by using Haven’s new prosperity to remove the need for personal upkeep. This will free a large percentage of the player base from having to deal with the economy at all, since the majority of their other needs will be met through personal income and treasure.
A second way we’re dealing with these issues is by bringing Phil on to make the economic system consistent across both chapters. This has the added benefit of freeing Jared to engage in the roleplaying aspects of the economy and allowing us to make that a more rewarding experience for all involved.
Lastly, we’re hoping that the new rulebook project will help in making the system itself more understandable for everyone. I don’t feel the system is overly opaque or complex, but if people aren’t able to understand it, then we need to do a better job of explaining it.
To that end, please take a look at the following write-up. Let me know if it helps you understand the system or leaves you as lost as you were before. If there is anything that is unclear, let me know about it and share any suggestions you might have in making it more accessible.
Let’s look at this step by step. If a character is interested in acquiring a Holding, they must go out into game and find one. There is no absolute guarantee of success, but roleplaying with NPC’s and helping people are generally the most likely routes to finding a Holding.
Once a potential Holding is found, it takes some combination of roleplaying and investment to acquire it. This can be a quest, flat cash, dating the NPC’s ugly child, etc. If the PC is successful in this, they take control of the Holding.
Every Holding has between one and three Production Areas. The number of Production Areas is just a measure of the holding’s capacity to produce, with holdings that have more Production Areas being more potentially productive than those with fewer production areas.
Upon acquisition of the holding, the PC will learn how many Production Areas the holding possesses, which resources can be produced by the holding and how many Workers are currently available. PC’s will receive a holding check-out sheet that gives them this information and allows them to assign their Production Areas to one of the resources that the holding is capable of producing. At check-out the PC assigns each of their Production Areas to one of the available resources. Assigning more than one Production Area to the same resource will result in increased yield for both Production Areas.
For a holding to be productive, it must have 10 available Workers for each Production Area the PC wishes to assign. Should the PC acquire additional Workers for their holding, extra Workers can be assigned to each Production Area and will generate additional resources. Every five additional Workers assigned to a Production Area will generate one additional resource of the assigned type (to a maximum of 10 additional Workers per Production Area). Should the PC have less than 10 workers for a Production Area, the area will receive a 10% production penalty for each missing Worker. Acquiring Workers is done through a combination of roleplaying and investment. Regional Advisors, along with the Research and Investigate skills, can also be helpful in finding and acquiring Workers for a holding.
The amount of resources each holding produces is determined by two main factors: the number of Production Areas assigned to a given Resource and Production Value of that Resource. Each Resource within a holding has a Production Value, meaning that some holdings will be better suited to producing specific resources even if they are capable of producing others. These Production Values generally range between 1 and 4, but may be higher in exceptional cases. The Production Value of the Resources within a holding will not be known to the PC at first, but can be learned by either hiring a Regional Advisor or using the Research or Investigate skills. Additionally, the Production Value of Resources in new holdings may begin low and increase over time.
PC’s can improve the Production Value of their holding’s Resources by acquiring both “Tools” and “Knowledge” for each Resource. The PC does this by first using the Research or Investigate skills (or hiring a Regional Advisor) to learn how much it will take to purchase Tools for a given Resource. It requires a second use of Research or Investigate to determine the cost of Knowledge, but the PC may learn this information before actually investing in Tools. Tools and Knowledge must be purchased for each Resource and must also be purchased in sequential order. Acquiring Tools will improve the Production Value of a Resource by 1 point, and acquiring Knowledge will improve the Production Value of a Resource by 2 points.
In addition to the main factors, there are some actions that can be taken in-game to provide small positive bonuses to a Holding’s production. These include, but are not limited to: providing military protection for the holding, roleplaying with the NPCs associated with the Holding, using the Favor Wealth Bonus on the NPC’s in a Holding, and completing quests that benefit the Holding. Likewise, some in-game actions can result in small negative penalties, such as failing to defend a Holding and neglecting the NPC’s within. The exact level of these bonuses and penalties is tracked by the GM staff, but is generally not available to the players. While the precise numbers are not available, the PC may discover the factors benefitting or disadvantaging their holding by roleplaying with the Holding’s NPC’s, using the Research or Investigate skills or hiring a Regional Advisor.
Re: FH Political changes 2014
Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 11:40 pm
by Kiel Reid
That is a good start. Couple of questions...
1 - If you find a new holding, does this create a new territory or is it attached to another territory?
2 - Have you guys thought about how useless this makes Food? I mean...I don't even really need it for commodities as it stands. It's 4th option on everything. Maybe switch it so it is in the Resource 2 slot for something. Rarified Herbs would be best as you just make healing items with those for the most part.
3 - Changes to Utilize Resource? I guess if it's staying I could just upgrade to wealthy on food but that's kinda weird.